The New Song "They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." — Rev 14:3
The Song of Moses "Those who had won the victory over the beast, his image,e and the number of his name, were standing on the sea of glass with harps from God.
They sang the song of God’s servant Mosesh and the song of the Lamb:
Great and awe-inspiring are Your works,
Lord God, the Almighty;
righteous and truei are Your ways,
King of the Nations.
Lord, who will not fear
and glorify Your name?
Because You alone are holy,
for all the nations will come
and worship before Youm
because Your righteous acts
have been revealed." — Rev 15:3,4
Okay, here's trying to be clear, because I'm still not certain we're talking about the same things here.
AGuest, I do not believe that the song mentioned at Rev 14:3 is the same some as mentioned at Rev 15:3. One is the "new song" and the other is the "song of Moses", and I believe that they are different, distinct and song by two different groups of singers. The "new song" is sung by the 144,000 only. The "song of Moses" is sung by "those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name." I don't know about you... but whether or not I'd ever be one of the 144,000 I do intend to be one who is victorious over the beast, his image and mark of his name: 666. This group is much larger than just 144,000, it includes them and the great multitude (crowd).
Revelation 19:1-9 shows the great multitude (crowd) singing, celebrating the fall of Babylon and the Lamb's bride. Then the angel concludes by telling John that those invited to the marriage feast are blessed— I know that the Watchtower teaches that the great multitude is not in heaven, and this multitude is angels, but... Why would angels be celebrating human salvation? And who is invited to the wedding feast? Obviously it's an invitition of humans, and the bride is obviously the 144,000, thus... (I'm just being clear, for the discussions sake, and because I don't know who has come to understand what.)
When the 144,000 sing it, THEY are singing it new for THEM... but it is not a new song. They are SINGING it... as IF it were a new song.
I don't get riled up in words that are only in certain translations but not in the original language. I also steer clear from removing or adding words, especially to Revelation which comes with a hefty warning about what happens to those who do that (even if—Band—it was to keep the original circulation from being corrupted and is just John's warning as a writer and not Christ's inspired intent for all generations to follow...).
Thus, I'd like to point out that reading the two verses together, and using the interlinear there is clarity there that's missing in most translations yet it is simple in the original language and doesn't require us to say "the new song" "is not a new song", and to resort to adding "if" where there isn't an "if" and a lot of reasoning, where none is required:
And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and as they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. — Revelation 14:2,3
It sounded like "a voice like harpists playing harps and as singing a new song".
The 144,000 are "solely from among the sons of Israel".
I believe the 144,000 are, as the scriptures explicitly say, from the children of the twelve tribes of Israel, so it is wholly not simply soley Israel. And I don't insert any "spiritual" before Israel, it's Israel. The foretold remnant of actual descendants of Israel.
And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony (martyardom/witness) of Jesus and on account of the word of God, and those who did not the beast nor the image of him, and did not take the mark upon the forehead and upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. — Revelation 20:4, Interlinear
I typed the above from the literal word-for-word from the Interlinear. Why? Because it makes clear there are two groups. Those who were the first resurrection, and those who victorious over the beast, and they all lived and reigned with Christ.
Subtle distinctions.
This is seeing all who are in heaven—the assembly of Christ (literally, of anointed Christians) which a man and his wife become one flesh, the bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ become one assembly or household. They all reign with Christ.
Proof? Remember the new song at the outset of Revelation sung by the 24 elders, and the four living beings? (with a chorus sung by millions of angels)
And they sang a new song with these words:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
And you have caused them to become
a Kingdom of priests for our God.
And they will reign on the earth.” — Revelation 5:9,10
This is a new song about the people of Revelation 20:4,5, who are not just the 144,000 but are the 144,000 and the great multitude.
Before I leave this portion of the post, I want to make clear:
- There are at least two new songs in Revelation, but all the new songs are not the same new song
- The new song sung by the 144,000 is new, and is sung by them only
- The song of Moses is not the same song as the new song of the 144,000
- Israel once learned and sang the song of Moses, and it will be sang again by the assembly in heaven—but it is not the new song
- The new songs sung in heaven are noted as being new because of the content of the song and the events which surround their being sung
AGuest, there is a beautiful tradition I wonder if you know about. Once you know the tradition you can search to see if what I say is true. The wedding tradition of the people of Palastine in ancient times, as are often practiced even today, included a few key events which are familar to us in another manner.
- A bride is selected from his people, by the father, a family member or trusted friend for the groom
- The bridegroom goes to the home of the bride with wine to negotiate and pay a bride price
- The bride, if she accepts the proposal and agrees to the price settled upon by her father and the bride groom symbolizes her acceptance by drinking from the same cup of wine as her bridegroom.
- The bridegroom goes back to his Father's home to prepare a place for their marriage, called a chuppah, and generally waits a year.
- The bridegroom is seen by neighbors and is, as part of the tradition, when the wedding will be— he will answer "nobody knows but my father", because the father is the one who says when the chuppah is ready, although it's standard for a virgin that it's is about a year's time.
- When the father says to the son that it's time, then the son proceeds to return to the house of the bride...
- It is the middle of the night, he because the ceremony of "wedding" is to steal the bride away to his father's house
- So that he is not mistaken for a thief in the night, he or his friend, call out in the night as they approach the home.
- The bride hurries out prepared to meet him (she has things that she does during the year too, mainly cleansing and preparing to be a wife)
- The procession includes lamps and on the return to the Father's home many come out to join them in joyous procession
There's more detail, step-by-step with durations of what happens upon return, the marriage feast, the chuppah, when the veil is lifted (revealing the bride), etc.
The point is, the bride, and we can open a new thread for this — please do and I'll share all that I know! there is much and its such a rich story! — drinks from the same cup as the bridegroom to accept his proposal. Christ paid for his bride with his life, and we know the cup he had to drink. He even asked if his apostles could drink from the same cup, then realizing that they would.
The 144,000 all die, despite what it is that the Watchtower teaches. They teach that they don't because they need to explain how it is that there are people who go to heaven transformed but not dead, because they teach ONLY the 144k go to heaven. It's much much simplier to believe simply what the Word says.
It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
The bride rises first to meet her bridegroom, then the virgins and those invited to the marriage feast join the procession.
There is no one who replaces unfaithful Israel. Hosea tells the torrid story of her affairs, her children, her being sent away and losing her name. Yet, Hosea 2 reminds us our Father said of his Israel, "I will betroth you to me forever". All of Hosea confirms that he will restore her, wooing her.
Romans 11:1: "Has God rejected his people? God forbid!"
Christendom (which includes all religions of Christianity, including the Watchtower) has done violence to the Word of God.
Paul explained much to the congregations which shed light on the great sacred secret revealed to him of the body of Christ. They, knowing the old covenant, the new covenant, and the culture and keeping true to the intent of the scriptures, accepted what he said because he didn't change what the scriptures said, but added a depth of meaning not yet realized or previously revealed.
This is fascinating stuff. I study the scriptures like Band on the Run, Revelation is favorite of mine, but I actually more than anything love the whole canon as one book, we call the bible. I mean that I don't take a "chapter" (one book) as it were, but I now examine as the entire book—the "bible"—which is why I refer to it as a story, because it's one story.
I need to get to work, so I have to close here and pick up when I get on my commute. I will leave you with this.
I to learn all truth from the spirit of truth which teaches us. However, all the truth and nothing happens without being revealed in the scriptures. So I am curious how you know all about the how Revelation was written and why, so I can study it because it's not there and it changes how we would view that book of prophecy (if we accept what you said). My teacher will not allow me to believe what is not the Word of God.
I refer to Messias the Christos as Y'shua, which is a short form of Yehowah 'is' Shua, meaning "Yehowah is Salvation". I will alternately use the other forms of his name, Yeshua or Yehoshua; I often just use Y'shua. Yah as used by David in his songs, or Halleluyah, the only form of YHWH which appears in Revelation or in any original Greek manuscripts (as opposed to Hebrew translations of the Greek) is an important part of my worship as well.
J and Jehovah
I do not use "J" because J simply didn't exist until recent history. It is ignorance and I whince each time people use it.
I do not use Jehovah, why? Read about Babylon's Jeh (the Zoroastrian demoness of lust, better known in Babylon as "the whore", consort to the "destructive spirit"). Then read about the Hebrews Hovah (ruin and disaster, occurs three times in the scriptures, referring to... guess who?).
The Watchtower in their arrogance say that if they were to use the Hebrew name of God then we'd have to use the Hebrew name of his son (Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek name of his Hebrew name.)
Well, more so than consistency is simply for me the meaning of the proper use of the names— Yehowah (YHWH) and all the theophoric names which were passed down generation to generation which tell us how to pronounce it, and all the data points in the scriptures which that pronuciation uphold about what we know of the name of YHWH, and that he gave his name to his son, and it was above any other name given: Yehowah is Salvation.
Sorry AGuest, remember, I wasn't looking for a mommy. Though I do love you and mean it!
Oh, and since you said "probably seen as YHWH", please look into the history of the letter J. It was simply a decorative "I".
AGuest are you "Shelby"? Someone used that name earlier but wasn't sure if that was referring to you? I am very much looking forward to talking with you! Sounds like we have much to share together!
