by RayPublisher 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Some of us who chose to remain Witnesses even though we don't fully agree with the GB expect the same respect for our choice as those of you who have
chosen to leave deserve our respect, or at least mine.
Why should someone who follows an obviously delusional path expect respect?
I, too, believe that anyone who stays a JW deserves "respect" at some level [for their very personnel choice] - it doesn't mean you have to agree with them. You have to remember that the very nature of this religion - being a cult - causes STRONG attachments. Many on this board have a common thread when it comes to leaving JWs. For many, they didn't leave overnight. It took months and in many cases YEARS to dis-engage with this religion that at one time they would have DIED for! So, I take it that any JW who is visiting this forum has already taken a step to consider a different "view". None of us should feel that as soon as someone joins this board, they are under obligation to QUIT their religion... remember, many are stuck in because of the SHUNNING policy or because they still don't have a clear view of these negative things they are now learning about their beloved religion.
Also, I for one enjoy it when JW Apologists respond to YouTube videos. I like to demonstrate to them how they use Logical Fallacies to support the WTS views. When it becomes clear to me that they don't understand what a logical fallacyis, I encourage them to study the meaning [and use of] "Logical Fallacies". They soon realise that Logical Fallacies are used by many people and organizations [not just JWs] and soon they begin to realise that the use of Logical Fallacies to support arguments and views is "flawed" and not the way to logically prove any point - religious or otherwise!
So, to JW Apologists, I say keep your comments coming. (I know for me, I have yet to see a JW apologists prove his argument without using Logical Fallacies. Therefore, it cements to me the point that the WTS is not who they say they are!)
My advice to everyone is, be kind to everyone. I know that it's easy to anonymously make negative or disparaging remarks on the internet, but that lowers the discussion level to something that many find unappealing and coldly judgemental. I know for me, when a JW has resorted to name calling in the past, I used to respond in like - but I've been trying to learn to stay on topic and don't resort to name-calling and other forms of attacks.
Cantleave,
If you can't respect your fellow man, do you expect to be treated back with respect?
As for "following an obviously delusional path", being a reason to deny respect, let me then put it this way:
You're British. Brits have a monarchy. Monarchies are "obiously delusional", obsolete political systems. Why would you live in a country that has an "obviously delusional" political system? How can you, a humanist enlightened by science ever accept to live under a delusional regime, and accept to be a citizen of such regime, even pay taxes that allow for the Royal Family to survive? How offensive for all other truly democratic republicans. Shame on you. You don't deserve our respect.
Does that make better sense to you now?
Eden
When I'm reasoning with JWs, I try to show them why they can NEVER say that they have the truth and then I prove it by posing a question: "That's why you - or the WTS - can't PROMISE me that the generation teaching will NEVER change again - can? you?" This question is designed to reveal a very harsh reality. All doctrines are subject to change [in a NY minute mind you] and then change again. So, knowing this, the thinking JW starts to realize and rationalize, "You know, we can never really say we have the truth, because the teachings of JWs have changed so much and continue to change, which can only mean that it's inappropriate to go to people's doors and insist that 'we have the truth'". It's simply being irresponsible to insist on saying this. The New Light doctrine really shoots the WTS in the foot because the very nature of this doctrine proves that they can never say that we [JWs] have "the truth"! Now, if the WTS wants to go around and insist [in their opionion of course] that they only have 90% of the truth, that's an option they could employ. Of course, they would never say that because it sounds quite odd, doesn't it?
btw: I've yet to have a JW PROMISE me that the generation teaching will NEVER change again. (For someone who is studying the Bible with JWs, they can ask, "Since JWs feel they have the truth, can they promise me that the things they are teaching today will NEVER change in the future?"
@ problemaddict - Your perspective is appreciated, TY! I like your suggestion to simply ask the JW apologist to explain and discuss with you what they disagree on.
@ EdenOne - You make a good point, and it shows that you are an open-minded individual, despite the policies and culture of the WT, which tends to close the Witnesses minds as a group to anything labeled "suspect".
@ Joepublisher1 - Excellent point about Logical Fallacies, and being kind and keeping it civil. This alone illustrates to these folks that we are not foaming at the mouth mentally diseased people.
BTW the links you embedded don't seem to be working...
As I've learned over the years : If you post it, someone somewhere sooner or later will roast it. Accept this as a very healthy dose of reality - unless, like the Watchtower, you have a strong need for universal agreement?
Try to give the pro-JW apologists something refreshing - something their very own organization doesn't give them: A respectful preparedness to let them comment without your needing to refute and/or hit back. You don't have to 'give in' but it is helpful to express understanding and thank them for taking the time to comment. Kindness can be disarming.
The fact is, these apologists are taking the time to "expose" themselves to the very literature their mother organization tells them not to look at. As we are fond of reminding them from time to time: By commenting they are already breaking the rules. Ouch!
For that reason alone, pro-JW apologists deserve lots of positive reinforcement and less judgements about being hypocrites. Who on this forum suddenly transitioned from pro-JW apologist to overt doubter? For many of us, it happened very gradually over time. The very first time I felt my defensiveness as a JW start to dissolve was when I read Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience: here was a man who truly understood what it was like to be held captive to a cult and who reflected this understanding in the kind and compassionate way he responded to the at-times vicious critics in the organization.
Yes Steve2- EXACTLY RIGHT IMO!
I have one JW apologist on JWStruggle named Skyrainbow she comments almost every day and some regulars are tearing her to shreds over there but I prefer they didn't myself. I have simply asked her questions and said she is welcome to comment on my site anytime she wants as long as she doesnt violate any obvious rules such as spamming, obscenity, etc.
When you guys here shred anyone who is still a JW and isn't prepared to leave (or somehow finds reasons to stay in), you're creating an attitude of "us vs. them" that is no different of the attitude within the WTS. And so, by ridiculing those who stay in, you're doing yourselves and your mission a disservice, really.
Eden
If you can't respect your fellow man, do you expect to be treated back with respect?
Lack of respect for someone's beliefs is not lack of respect for the person. I have a great deal of respect for John Travolta as an actor, but I have no respect for his beliefs.
As for "following an obviously delusional path", being a reason to deny respect, let me then put it this way: You're British.
AND Proud of it
Brits have a monarchy.
Unfortunately we do!
Monarchies are "obiously delusional", obsolete political systems.
AGREED!!
Why would you live in a country that has an "obviously delusional" political system?
Because this is where I was born!
How can you, a humanist enlightened by science ever accept to live under a delusional regime, and accept to be a citizen of such regime, even pay taxes that allow for the Royal Family to survive?
Because I have no choice, In the same way that if I was born in China, I would live in a despotic, autocratic system. I
How offensive for all other truly democratic republicans. Shame on you. You don't deserve our respect.
First of all let's get one thing straight, our Monarchy has no influence on the democratically voted for Parliament. Secondly this is a straw man argument because I do support a monarchy.
Does that make better sense to you now?
Not at all, you are CHOOSING to support an organisation that has been proved to be harmful in every aspect of it's operations and culture. You disagree with some of the structural aspects of this cult but by your own admission you believe in some, if not most of the lies.
