Can 70 years be symbolic in the Bible?

by Pterist 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Jeffro

  Larsinger58:

  Josephus links these 70 years to the "poor people" who were last deported.

  In his earlier works (Antiquities of the Jews X, XII & XX and Wars of the Jews V), Josephus suggests 70 years of exile, however he later corrects this.

  In particular, he specifically states that the temple was desolate for fifty years (Against Apion I*). He also states that the period from the fall of Israel until the rule of Cyrus was 182.5 years (Antiquities of the Jews X). Neither of these facts is compatible with a '70 year exile'.

  *In Against Apion I Josephus also says Jerusalem was desolate during the 70 years, and not for seventy years. If someone goes somewhere during the week, it doesn't mean they were there all week.

  Lars:

  So before you getto debating "for Babylon" vs. "at Babylon", you've got to claim Josephus is a lunatic, and a crazy and lying historian whom we have to totally ignore in this case.

  Again, you're wrong. There's no need to suggest Josephus was a 'lunatic' or 'crazy'. Josephus just misinterpreted something early on and later corrected the error. Unlike you, there's no indication Josephus ever had any vested interest in the period being seventy years or any other period.
• 

  Jeffro

  Paying sabbaths is a reference to the discussion of sabbaths in Leviticus chapters 25 and 26. In particular, Leviticus 26:28 states that they would be punished "seven times", and 25:8 further specifies a period of "seven sabbaths" as 49 years. The statement about paying sabbaths at 2 Chronicles 36:21 is a direct quote of Leviticus 26:35.

  It should be noted that there is no requirement for any 'magical' 'fulfilment' of 'prophecies' here. Most scholars regard the works in question, including Leviticus, to have been originally written (and edited) during or after the Babylonian exile. In any case, a careful consideration of the relevant scriptures confirms that for the period in question, the Bible is consistent with secular history, regardless of whether it was really written 'in advance' or not.
• 

  Larsinger58

  JEFFRO: You're quite wrong. The land paid 'sabbaths' for 49 years from 587BCE until 538BCE.

  JEFFRO: I don't think you understand. The current timeline that dates year 19 of Neb2 to 587 BCE is being challenged. So you can't use a challenged timeline to disprove anything. You're presuming this timeline is correct. I'm showing that that timeline is challenged.

  Case in point, Josephus vs. the popular timeline. Josephus clearly notes that those last deported in year 23 of Neb2 served Babylon for 70 years. On the seventieth year of their exile they returned in the 1st of Cyrus. Now that introduction of a 70-year period from year 23 to the 1st of Cyrus is not possible with the current timeline. There are only 50 years from 587 to 537 BCE, for instance. The relative dating is from year 18 of Neb2 to the 1st of Cyrus. Per Josephus, if there are 70 years from year 23 to the return, then you need 75 years for this same period. That means you are looking at a clear-cut 25-year difference between Josephus and the secular records.

  So what now? Clearly, one of them is incorrect. But you can't just presume Josephus is wrong and the Babylonian records are correct. Especially since, once you actually start investigating, you find the primary records are "copies" from the Persian Period! That right there tells us, if the Babylonian records were revised, which they would have to be if Josephus is correct, then they were revised by the Persians. That is where we look for answers.

  Now, I don't do as you do at this level, which is be dogmatic. I can afford to just educate and analyze. Thus in this case, you simply confirm there is a popular timeline out there that dates year 18 of Neb2 to 587 BCE. Fine. I note that Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" understood that the "70 weeks" prophecy must be fulfilled by Cyrus! Even Carl O. Jonsson states in his book that if you were to take the Bible face value it would appear that Cyrus should fulfill this prophecy since the Bible specifically says that Cyrus would rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. But having noted that, Anstey's timeline would date the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE, when that prophecy begins. That gives you a different "absolute date" for year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar, which would fall in 530 BCE. That is, from 455 BCE we introduce the 70 years of exile of the last deportees in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. 455 + 70 = 525 BCE. If 525 BCE dates year 23, then 530 BCE dates year 18. So what you have is a discrepancy between 530 BCE and 587 BCE, Josephus vs. the revised Persian documents. This is a difference of 57 years! 587-530=57.

  But then, we have the VAT4956 to contend with. it contains matches for two different dates for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II. Most of the references match 568 BCE, but two references from the same lunar cycle match 511 BCE. Please note that the difference between the two dates is also 57 years! Coincidence? Then we note thta per the VAT4956's 511 BCE references for year 37 that year 23 would also fall in 525 BCE. So whether you consider it a coincidence or not, you can't dismiss the idea that absolutely no evidence of another timeline, which would be the original timeline, has survived down to our day. The VAT4956 would require a correction in the timeline for year 37 of Neb2 from 568 BCE, which would be a proven fabricated date to 511 BCE.

  So from a Biblical chronology point of view, the 511 BCE reference is more challenging to the Bible's timeline than the 568 BCE dating. The challenge would be how is it that the Bible's timeline contradicts our best reference to the original Babylonian timeline of 511 BCE for year 37 of Neb2, if we are reading and interpreting the VAT4956 correctly? Only thing is, when 455 BCE dates the 1st of Cyrus and the exile is 70 years as Josephus requires, year 37 falls in 511 BCE -- the very same year as the VAT4956 dates it.

  So at this point, there is no return, no recovery. You have a confirmation from the secular VAT4956 that 455 BCE for the 1st of Cyrus is, indeed, the original dating.

  The only problem is, now removing those fake 82 years from the Persian Period, which is easily done.

  So, Jeffro, all you are doing is telling us (and yourself) what the revised dates are. We already know what the revised dates are. But we also know what the original dates are as provided in the VAT4956, which might require some explanation in regards to the Biblical timeline, but there is no need since the Bible itself dates year 37 of Neb2 to the same date of 511 BCE as the VAT4956 does. So we're done.

  Now, if you want to believe the revised dates and the revised records over the Bible, that's YOUR choice! But don't try to twist the Bible's own words and references in regards to the 70 years of sabbath rest. The Bible says the land rested for 70 years, Period. Either reject that, or reject the secular records. But don't try and twist the meaning.
• 

  mP

  Moses says that any prophecy that doesnt come true within the prophets lifetime is blasphemy. YOu can find the scripture if you google. SO either Daniel or Moses are wrong here.
• 

  Pterist

  Lars, forgive me for intruding but please look at the following information on WHAT and WHEN a jubliee is celebrated, which is consistent with the Bible in as follows:

  Jubilee (biblical)

  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  The Jubilee (Hebrew yovel ????) year is the year at the end of seven cycles of shmita (Sabbatical years), and according to Biblicalregulations had a special impact on the ownership and management of land in the Land of Israel; there is some debate whether it was the 49th year (the last year of seven sabbatical cycles, referred to as the Sabbath's Sabbath), or whether it was the following (50th) year. Jubilee deals largely with land, property, and property rights. As with most cultures, the property rights regarding land, slaves and indentured servants was less absolute than for other property rights such as for tools and personal artifacts. [citation needed]

  The biblical rules concerning Sabbatical years (shmita) are still observed by many religious Jews in the State of Israel, but the regulations for the Jubilee year have not been observed for many centuries.
• 

  Larsinger58

  JEFFRO:

  I apologize. I just thought you were ignorant (of the facts), but you are a hard-line propagandist for the current history. I note this based on your timeline. Thanks.

  But as I noted before, even if from 609 BCE to 539 BCE gives you 70 years of domination by Babylon by the revised timeline, that has absolutely nothing to do with the 70 years Josephus claims was served by the poor people deported in year 23 in Antiquities. Now you make an important point when you reference the "fifty years" in Against Apion:

  In his earlier works (Antiquities of the Jews X, XII & XX and Wars of the Jews V), Josephus suggests 70 years of exile, however he later corrects this.

  Normally, it would appear to be so, except in the same work, 2 paragraphs earlier he again mentions the 70 years. So he mentions both the 50 years and the 70 years in the same work. Here's that reference in Against Apion:

  Against Apion 1:19: And when he was relating the acts of this king, he describes to us how he sent his son Nabuchodonosor against Egypt, and against our land, with a great army, upon his being informed that they had revolted from him; and how, by that means, he subdued them all, and set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire; nay, and removed our people entirely out of their own country, and transferred them to Babylon; when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia.

  Now here's the issue, Jeffro. You claim he makes a "correction" of the 70 years in Against Apion, but can you make that claim when in the same work, just a paragraph earlier he again asserts the 70-year period of exile? Is this a correction? If so, it is not a correction of Antiquities but his last statement of the 70 years in the previous paragraph of the same work! You are thus claiming he had an epiphany between 1.19 and 1.21! Here's his statement regarding the "fifty years", which is clearly not a correction of his previous reference to the 70 years:

  Against Apion 1:21 These accounts agree with the true histories in our books; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years;

  So Josephus is not correcting himself in Against Apion. What he is doing is saying the temple and land were desolate for a period of 70 years and 50 years. So which is it? Well, Josephus is clearly contradicting himself, right? It would seem on a simple reading except we can't really make that claim. Why?

  Because Cyrus had two rulerships. His first was 20 years over the Persian part of the Medo-Perisan empire. After that 20-year rule, he became king over the entire Persian empire, including Babylon, and began counting himself as king with year 1. The difference in the rulerships of Cyrus is 20 years. The difference between 50 years and 70 years is also 20 years. So in relation to the rule of Cyrus, the land was desolated for fifty years when he began his first 20-year rulership, and 70 years when he began his second. So the statements are not necessarily in direct conflict. So note how that looks with the VAT4956-based timeline when year 37 falls in 511 BCE:

  530 BCE 18th of Nebuchadenzzar II

  529 BCE 19th of Nebuchadnezzar II: Jerusalem falls in 5th month

  528 BCE 20th of Nebuchadnezzar II: Gedeliah killed in 7th month. Remnant of Jews run down to Egypt and refuse to return.

  525 BCE 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar II: Nebuchadnezzar campaigns and descends upon Egypt and deport the Jews to Babylon.

  525 BCE 23rd of nebuchadnezzar II: The 70 years for Tyre and the servitude of last deportees begins.

  525 BCE 23rd of nebuchadnezzar II: The 70 years of desolation of the land and paying back sabbaths begins.

  480 BCE 1st of Nabonidus' 2-year rule.

  479 BCE 2nd of Nabonidus' 2-year rule.

  478 BCE 1st of Belshazzar's 17-year rule as co-ruler with Nabonidus. 3rd of Nabonidus

  477 BCE 4th of Nabonidus

  476 BCE 5th of Nabonidus.

  475 BCE 6th of Nabonidus. Cyrus conquers Astyages, begins his 20 year rule. This marks 50 years of desolation from 525 BCE.

  455 BCE 1st of Cyrus as head of all of Persia including Babylon. This marks 70 years from 525 BCE.

  So if Josephus is referencing the years of desolation in relation to the rule of Cyrus, then the land was desolated for "fifty years" when he became king over Persia Minor, and it was desolated for "70 years" when Cyrus became king over Greater Persia including Babylon and started his kingship years with year 1 again in 455 BCE.

  So we can presume this is what Josephus is conveying with the double reference of 70 years and then 50 years. Or Josephus is contradicting himself in the same work. But for sure, he is not correcting himself about the 70 years as you incorrectly claim.

  But even so, if Josephus is changing the 70-year reference to 50 years, you have to consider that he is accommodating the revised timeline in his later work. This makes the point that his earlier reference to the 70 years was the original historical belief of the Jews in regards to the 70 years.

  Now, Jeffro, it is clear you are quite intelligent or someone is helping you out. You either knew about the "70 year" reference in Against Apion 1.19 or you didn't. If you did, you knew that claiming Josephus was correcting himself in 1.21 is not the case and thus you were just running more proto-fake timeline propaganda. Or you didn't know and in doing your net searches read that he corrects himself, not realizing that he didn't and you're just grabbing at straws trying to maintain that the 587 BCE dating timeline is credible -- but it isn't. Plus, Josephus does not help you out with his fifty-year reference in Against Apion 1.21. He is playing games, though, using the two rules of Cyrus to reflect a 50-year and 70-year desolation period. This is no different than the VAT4956 having the revised and original references in the same text; those matching 568 BCE and those matching 511 BCE. But because the 511 BCE dates are cryptic, it means the 568 BCE references are from the revised timeline and that the original date for year 37 was, indeed, 511 BCE. Again, the critical point here is to compare the 511 BCE reference to that of the Bible and see what else we have to do to harmonize the Bible and the secular timeline. But at this point, there is no need since both are in agreement! Both the Bible and the VAT4956 date year 37 to 511 BCE!

  So nice try, Jeffro! Anyway, that's my end of the take on the "fifty years" mentioned by Joseph, which is clearly not a "correction" since the 70 years is again reasserted in 1.19, just 2 paragraphs earlier! If you insist this is a correction, then it is a correction of 1.19 of the same work. I don't think that will fly.

  But thanks for bringing this false claim up! It is important to look at everything, consider all the theories and still you have the chance to make up your own mind on these matters.
• 

  mP

  Lars:

  480 BCE 1st of Nabonidus' 2-year rule.

  479 BCE 2nd of Nabonidus' 2-year rule.

  478 BCE 1st of Belshazzar's 17-year rule as co-ruler with Nabonidus. 3rd of Nabonidus

  mP:

  How do we know your counting the years of the Babylonian kings correctly. Its just to convenient that your presenting each reign as being exactly a r round year value, no halves or quarters etc. All this rounding adds up especially when there are lots of reigns and other yearly lengths added.
• 

  Jeffro

  The current timeline that dates year 19 of Neb2 to 587 BCE is being challenged.

  The timeline is being challenged by an individual with a delusional Messiah complex based on invalid premises, with a vested interest in retrofitting historical records to support his own delusion.
• 

  Jeffro

  Lars:

  Now, Jeffro, it is clear you are quite intelligent or someone is helping you out.

  Get to a psychiatrist ASAP you patronising fool.
• 

  mP

  Jeffro,

  You better watch out. i strongly believe that Lars sent that asteroid over Russia the other day as a warning to the unbelievers , particularly yourself. The evidence in the book of Ruth clearly discusses the fire of God sending this message.

  Lars are you a descendant of King David !?