Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church

by designs 110 Replies latest social current

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  still thinking

  Even some atheists have and/or create prejudice against people of religion/faith.

  I'm not sure that is true. I think some people of faith, believe atheists are doing that, when it's not the people necessarily, but the belief. Sometimes believers are unable to separate the two because they cannot separate the belief from who they are. So some take it personally.

  Lets face it...people of faith often create prejudice against other people of faith if it doesn't agree with theirs. Atheists do not generally single out a faith to be opposed to. They are all the same to them. So it isn't about individual people. It's about what they teach and do.

  And even if some atheists did do that...so what? They do not represent all atheists like religion represents its followers. Only themselves. Other atheists are free to accept or dismiss an idea based on it's merits. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what to believe and think and what they should or shouldn't view as morally right or wrong...for example homosexuality or abortion or contraception or female mutilation.

  I do not think that people who identify as Christians or Muslims, etc are bad. But I do think many of their religious beliefs are. Big difference.
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  tec

  I'm not sure that is true. I think some people of faith, believe atheists are doing that, when it's not the people necessarily, but the belief. Sometimes believers are unable to separate the two because they cannot separate the belief from who they are. So some take it

  personally.

  Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this. It is an umbrella bias, based on a person's personal faith or religion, and without taking into consideration their skills or education. I think (hope) it is a small minority, but minorities such as this can also grow, and their bias and prejudice then grows with them.

  Lets face it...people of faith often create prejudice against other people of faith if it doesn't agree with theirs.

  Some do, agreed.

  Atheists do not generally single out a faith to be opposed to. They are all the same to them. So it isn't about individual people. It's about what they teach and do.

  Yes, this is kind of my point. The prejudice is against an entire group of people, regardless of what the faith is, or what is taught. That is a bias against a group of people for their personal faith or religion, without even knowing their beliefs; and having nothing to do with the person themselves and how they live their lives.

  That prejudice can be talked down if a person takes the time to listen. But the prejudiced ideas are automatically there from the start.

  And even if some atheists did do that...so what? They do not represent all atheists like religion represents its followers. Only themselves. Other atheists are free to accept of dismiss an idea based on it's merits. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what to believe and think and what they should or shouldn't view as morally right or wrong...for example homosexuality or abortion or contraception or female mutilation.

  I never said they did represent all atheists. But flip that coin. There are how many religious persuasions out there? Some people of faith adhere to zero religious doctrines, creeds, leaders, etc. So a theist is also free to accept or dismiss an idea based on its merits and their personal belief. Not because some church or religious leader tells them what they should or should not think or do.

  Again, this is an example of the bias. Grouping all people of faith/religion under one umbrella and making a statement that applies only to some of them.

  I do not think that people who identify as Christians or Muslims, etc are bad. But I do think many of their religious beliefs are. Big difference.

  I think many religious beliefs out there are harmful as well. But I that the prejudice against people of faith or religion that some atheists promote (see my first reply) is also harmful and can grow to be just as harmful as any other bias. As are political/national/racial/heirarchal/income/class divides and prejudices.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  still thinking

  The prejudice is against an entire group of people, regardless of what the faith is, or what is taught.

  No...it IS about what they teach...you are still lumping belief in with the person. It IS about what is taught. I gave you an example of that with beliefs about homosexuality...the catholic church is actively opposing same sex marriage world wide.And then there is Female genital mutilation...Islam actively does this to their young women. And the religion itself is very prejudiced against womens rights. Those are just a few examples.

  That is a bias against a group of people for their personal faith or religion, without even knowing their beliefs; and having nothing to do with the person themselves and how they live their lives.

  Why do I need to know more about a religion to think it is not beneficial when at a glance you can see prejudice and bigotry in many of them. If they are teaching such dogma...they are not a religion I would wish to associate with. I am sure there are INDIVIDUALS within these religions that disagree with the practices and beliefs. But, they are still a part of the religion. And as such, get lumped in with the umbrella OF that religion. If they really disagreed, they would not be a part of it. Except of course with Islam, where they risk their lives speaking out against their religion.

  Just as with shunning within the JW religion. I do know more about them now...but IF I had learn that this is how they behave at the beginning of my study with them...would I want to continue that study? Would you have? They hide that behaviour from their new studies because deep down they know it is WRONG and it would put people off studying with them. So in this instance. You have good people (and maybe some not so good) being conned by belief and faith in religion. Is that NOT delusional?

  Having the opinion that blind faith in a god (any of the possible gods you would like to select) is delusional is not the same as having ones life threatened because one does not agree with or challenges the religious beliefs of their birth. (I am of course referring to Islam here, but Christianity has had the same history).

  As much as people would like to convince themselves that they have their own personal faith...the minute they start to compare notes with others about their understandings of sacred texts...they are forming NEW religious beliefs. And there is ALWAYS someone who takes centre stage and is considered some sort of authority on what things mean and whether someone is right or wrong in THEIR understanding. That's when we have handed our minds over to another who CANNOT prove of disprove anything they are teaching when it comes to their belief.

  People simply have to have faith. THAT IS A DANGEROUS THING. As history of faith and belief has already shown us. Thousands of religions are started with good intentions (some not), and they all morph into power structures after a while...with one or two people being the authority figure that they turn to for clarification about what their selected god wants or doesn't want. If THAT isn't delusional...what is?
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  tec

  Still, just to bring this back around to the point that I made to begin with:

  Comments labelling people of faith/religion being ignorant, superstitious, arrogant, afraid, deluded, etc... that they should not hold certain positions in science or law... this is what I am speaking of, and I have seen this.

  As well, some of your comments above regarding religions takes no consideration of the various sects springing up that are fundamentalist/intolerant/harmful... and while these might be the loudest; they are not necessarily in the majority. So that is why one needs to ask a person, rather than throw them under some blanket umbrella. Particularly your thoughts on Islam. But also your thoughts on belief in God also shows bias... that it has to be blind belief. As well as your thoughts on the idea that people cannot share their personal faith without bowing to a leader (other than Christ, in that faith)

  Regardless, my point was made in the above quoted statment. If you want to look at that.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  still thinking

  Particularly your thoughts on Islam...tec

  Oh, don't take my thoughts on Islam, I would NEVER expect that tec...check for yourself. I'll help you out, you could start with this, here is a woman who suffered genitle mutilation as a child at the hands of Islamists. There are many people like her who have escaped that repressive religion. She has had her life threatened because she spoke out. And she is not unique.

  But, you know, feel free also to believe that the Islamic religion is good apart from everything she says and that as an atheist I am just being biased against it.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=fe_cuzsmmHU&feature=endscreen
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  still thinking

  As well as your thoughts on the idea that people cannot share their personal faith without bowing to a leader (other than Christ, in that faith)

  I have yet to see it. And I didn't say they 'bowed to a leader', those are YOUR words. I said, they always refer to someone who claims to have authority of some sort. Authority being....Special insight, knowledge, connection to the spirit realm or messages or understanding of their god and what he wants.

  People love to have their ideas/beliefs confirmed. And they love to be able to ask someone who claims to know. Unfortunately, unlike scientific enquiry. There really is no debate, THAT person is ALWAYS right. Often they pretend to be discussing. But what is actually happening is that they are telling people that they KNOW what the truth is. So really, the so called 'discussion' is fake. It's a teaching session.

  That's how many believers work. They want to tell you what god wants. NO religion or faith is different. They ALL claim to KNOW.
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  cofty

  If believers can hate the sin and love the sinner, why is it so hard for them to understand that a rational person can despise faith and love the faithful?
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  designs

  Nicely worded cofty.

  Tec- Tim was asked to speak to this congregation, and I am not certain of the topic, but it will no doubt be inline with the conservative values of the Church. Professional Football has had gay players going back to its beginnings but they hid it for the most part and only very recently has there been some legal protections and actual policy against discrimination. Sort of the last peg in the Civil Rights/Human Rights agenda.
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  Cagefighter

  @Stillthinking- Yes I believe the WTBS and it's members have the right to shun who ever they want. Do you really think we can tell people who to be friends with as well?

  Also, you can't tell me what I can and can not complain about, it's called Freedom of Speech. It's the same crap that you are doing when you speak out against the WTBS. The same stuff the Tebow does.

  I got a little secret for you EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION AND EVERYONE THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT.... You can't control people's thoughts and beliefs. You really can't even control their actions as a free society. We can only punish the actions the cross the line after the fact.

  Trying to shut down those that oppose your point of view instead of rebutting them makes your side lose ground, not gain it.
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  cofty

  I believe the WTBS and it's members have the right to shun who ever they want. Do you really think we can tell people who to be friends with as well?

  That's some seriously screwed up logic cagefighter.