I had thought I had missed something as I remember the old threads. I did hear of money as an issue regarding providing for one's self. That's common when u work with 'dubs, and then u are df'd. Or a family business. Barabara's post made it sound like they, (The Unthanks), were getting harrased on the street. I know some 'dubs can be over the top and think they are "cleaning out Jehovah's house", but I hadn't heard any specifics. I'll try emailing directly
Recent post regarding the Unthank family and persecution cited
by wha happened? 29 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Marvin Shilmer
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“Context, my friend, context - it is everything.”
I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. My impression is that Unthank has offered instances of what he perceives and asserts as persecution, and that was the question. Whether others recognize the same incidents as persecution is for each to decide, which is as it should be.
I don’t get impression that Unthank is trying to hide anything. Voluminous documents have been filed with authorities and made available to readers here and elsewhere. The content is tedious, and not altogether articulated according to familiar standards. The original presentation also had (has) a weirdness about it that naturally makes one wonder. But none of that makes Unthank’s claims false. And, it’s Unthank’s prerogative to decide how, what and when to present whatever it is he wants presented in the way of facts.
As I understand things Unthank is at least indirectly (if not directly!) credited with having Watchtower finally clean up the working with children credentials required under local law, and that’s a good thing. So we know Unthank is real and that there is merit in his claims. Just exactly what gets stirred up in the muck of Watchtower doings down-under is yet to be seen. Of one thing I’m sure: Watchtower is no less dirty down there that everywhere else, which is plenty dirty.
Marvin Shilmer
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steve2
I don’t get impression that Unthank is trying to hide anything.
Marvin, I totally agree. I have not suggested he is hiding anything. What I have stated with perhaps less caution than I did a few months ago is an evident inclination to exaggerate and resort to at times quite florid language that reeks of an off-putting religiosity.
Marvin, you are far, far more generous than me in stating that it is what he 'perceives and asserts as persecution'. That's absolutely fine with me. My main beef has been that his persistently unhelpful communication style reduces the impact of his otherwise powerful and valid message.
Clearly, however, I am not the only reader who keeps wondering when reading Mr Unthank's expressive communications, what is verifiable as "fact" and what is (even unintended) hyperbole and weak adducing of so-called "evidence" against the Watchtower. That fact that he caught a few hugely significant fishes doesn't necessarily mean his entire catch is huge. Reliability of one's account is so absolutely crucial.
I allow that my own criticism of Mr Unthank has been seen as severely critical of both the man and his message and that I am unappreciative of the obvious good work he has done. What a shame, because I have tried to separate the man who is clearly suffering from his unfortunately off-putting communication style. But I make no apologies - given that Mr Unthank himself is no stranger to severe criticism:
He is unremitting and dogged in his criticism of the Watchtower Society and named individuals in it. Good on him.
As I understand things Unthank is at least indirectly (if not directly!) credited with having Watchtower finally clean up the working with children credentials
required under local law, and that’s a good thing. So we know Unthank is real and that there is merit in his claims.
Fair enough point Marvin. Using the same valid line of reasoning, the Watchtower itself can be "credited" with championing religious rights in the American and Canadian law courts. We can express appreciation for their earlier legal-challenge victories, and yet still feel justified in questioning their teachings and practices.
If a JW said in response to our criticism, "But the Watchtower has achieved so much good in the law courts", we'd think that they are missing the point. The "good works" we humans carry out in one area do not necessarily nullify the questionable works we do elsewhere. This core moral principle applies to you, to me, to Mr Unthank, to the Watchtower and to every other individual, group and organization we care to name.
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Marvin Shilmer
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“My main beef has been his persistently unhelpful communication style reduces the impact of his message.”
I agree. Style is a problem. Lest we forget, Unthank is a trained carpenter; not a trained paralegal or journalist.
“If a JW said in response to our criticism, "But the Watchtower has achieved so much good in the law courts, we'd think that they are missing the point. The "good works" humans carry out in one area do not necessarily nullify the questionable works elsewhere. this core principle applies to you, to me, to Mr Unthank, to the Watchtower and every other individual, group and organization.”
Agreed. Here’s the difference:
- In Watchtower’s case we have proven instances of bad works. Not just questionable works; bad works.
- In Unthank’s case, so far, I don’t see proven instances of bad works. When it comes to questionable works, the jury's still out on that one too.
It’s valid to question allegations. Unfortunately we’re a bit out of the loop when it comes to legal proceedings and procedure in the jurisdiction Unthank’s operating within. Hence our questioning does, at this point, amount to speculation about our understanding of what we see and not necessarily of facts on the ground. We can talk about what we’d like to see. But until things run the course we may not have opportunity to know those things. All we can do responsibly is talk about what we know. We’re not in a position to refute claims made by Unthank or to presume his claims false.
But, of course, we are in a position to know whether Unthank’s accusations have been proven by evidence we know of. Problem is, though, we aren’t in the evidentiary loop at the moment.
Marvin Shilmer
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smiddy
steve2 / and other interested parties
I hear what you are saying , I know where your coming from , you may very well have some valid points , I just think your timing is wrong to get answers to your questions now.
Consider this : And I stress this is just my observation on the matter .Having met steven and knowing what he went through in the magistrates court in morwell gippsland a country town up against the WTB&TS , which they dragged on for months ,Im pretty certain he would have made a substantial submission to the present inquiry by the govt. into child sexual abuse , and that being the case it would not be in his interest to jeopardise his input by divulging any information on a public forum such as this , while the inquiry is still ongoing .And I stress this is just my personal opinion.
Anybody who is following this case might like to know that it was announced today that the findings of this inquiry are not expected to be finalised before september , so be patient theirs a long way to go yet.
smiddy
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maisha
Have you been in the org steve2?
have you ever been the target of the org traching you a lesson steve2?
are you currently in the org steve2?
If you had ever been dealt with by the society intent upon teaching you whom has the power you would never ask these questions.
Steven has taken the case to the courts, the media, the world as nobody else has done soto date.
You question and critisise his reputation, a man that stood before a government judicial inquiry for several days answering ALL their questions accurately and on OATH.
IF there was any BULLSHIT in his evidence they would have THROWN HIM OUT FASTER than a stinking old fish.
lol
If you ready the transcripts of his evidence the Chair person thanked him for his submissions.
he detailed very accurately all things. if it was nto accurate the ORG would have sued his BUTT. buttttt they didnt...
I have Seen a person whom i considered my friend destroyed by the society.
I was NOT in a position to assist him at the time and I regret very much that i didnt have the balls to stand up at the time and support him.
He lost his sons, wife and all their friends.
he lost his employment to a witness company, and then shunning is a vicious persecution in itself, especially in a small town.
Recently he took his life.
I cried for him although far away i remember what he had done to him and his family.
Congregational POWER is a terrible VICIOUS thing. and Frankly i resent your smart arse mindless attacks on Steven.
What have YOU done to Big the Organisation DOWN steve2?
lets here exactly what you have done!
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maisha
excuse my speloing the phone changes words, very frustrating
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wha happened?
Maisha, it doesn't answer the question, what vicious persecution has been unleashed against Mr Unthank.
However I am thankful that someone in Australia is bringing this up in the courts. No matter how large or small the battle, it's nice seeing the WT having to defend itself all over the world
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Refriedtruth
55 reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses Will Never Be Reformed by Frank J. Toth
1. Teaching that true Christianity is an organization instead of a way of life
2. Claiming salvation is dependent upon belonging to the JW denomination
3. Claiming that the organization speaks for and is controlled by Jehovah, thereby equating the organization with God himself
4. Centralizing authority in an organization instead of letting Christ be the head of each Christian
5. Claiming that the “faithful and discreet slave” is the “anointed class” rather than each individual Christian who shows himself or herself to be responsible and obedient to Christ
6. Teaching that the early Christians were led by a governing body
7. Teaching that Jesus appointed the “anointed remnant” as his true church in 1919
8. Viewing the so-called “anointed” class (actually, the governing body) as God’s channel and prophet
9. Placing WT literature above the Bible
10. Frequently taking Bible texts out of context in order to build support for the organization’s man-made teachings and procedures
11. Teaching that Jesus returned in 1914 and is “invisibly present” since then
12. Teaching that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE when no historical records confirm this and the actual date is believed by nearly all historians to be 587 BCE
13. Falsifying the fact that Charles Russell predicted for 1914 the end of the world, not Christ’s return
14. Lying about a so-called “increase” in earthquakes, warfare, famines, persecution, etc., since 1914
15. Contradictorily condemning military organizations and frowning upon JWs who choose alternative service in lieu of military service while the headquarters organization at the same time owns stock in a military product organization (REGI)
16. Taking a conflicting stand with regard to the United Nations, claiming that it is the “wild beast” of Revelation that leads all nations in a fight against God and Christ at Armageddon, but signing on as an NGO member and publishing articles that present the UN in a favorable light
17. Teaching that it’s wrong to celebrate birthdays and all holidays
18. Teaching that Abraham and the faithful men and women of old are not among the holy ones who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom
19. Interpreting Jewish restoration prophecies as fulfilled in “the anointed remnant”
20. Teaching that the Scriptures are directly addressed only to “the remnant of anointed ones”
21. Teaching that only the “anointed” must be born again
22. Teaching that the “great crowd” are not begotten or anointed by the Holy Spirit
23. Teaching that the “great crowd” are God’s grandchildren and not his sons and daughters
24. Teaching that the “great crowd” are not members of the bride of Christ
25. Teaching that Jesus is not the mediator between God and the “great crowd” of Revelation chapter 7
26. Teaching that the resurrection of the “anointed” precedes the resurrection of the “other sheep” and that it has already begun
27. Teaching that only “anointed” JWs will receive immortality in the resurrection
28. Inviting only the “anointed” to partake at the memorial
29. Claiming that spiritual food comes from the “anointed” class whereas nearly all the writers of WT publications are members of the “other sheep” class
30. Creating a climate of fear by authoritarianism
31. Controlling what individual JWs may read of Bible-related publications that are not produced by the WT Society
32. Arrogantly pretending that the JW organization maintains higher standards than any other religion and proclaiming publicly that all other churches are members of Babylon the Great
33. Forbidding attendance and participation at other churches
34. Class distinctions such as “governing body,” “anointed remnant” and “great crowd of other sheep”
35. Class distinctions such as publishers, auxiliary pioneers, regular pioneers, special pioneers, circuit overseers, district overseers, Bethelites, Governing Body, etc.
36. Prohibiting women from serving in any meaningful role in the congregation while expecting them to do the bulk of the work in “field service”
37. Constantly prodding the membership by means of literature, meetings and conventions to do ever more and more in the service of the organization, promoting an atmosphere where many feel their best is never good enough
38. Setting dates for Armageddon and thereby urging the membership to abandon normal living, this often resulting in the ruination of health and family life, as well as creating employment and financial hardships
39. Teachings that lead the members to believe righteousness and salvation can be earned by devoted and loyal support of the organization’s slavish programs
40. Keeping meeting attendance and field service records as a gauge of an individual’s spirituality
41. Organizationally requiring no blood transfusions instead of letting it be a matter of conscience, thereby cruelly informing all members that they will be shunned by the organization if they accept a transfusion that might restore health following a life-threatening accident or illness
42. Allowing their own infants and children to die instead of allowing doctors to give them necessary blood transfusions
43. Teaching that the “congregation” of Matthew 18:17 is the body of elders
44. Holding heresy trials and disciplinary hearings in secrecy from the rest of the congregation
45. Withholding information that would be helpful to persons who have been accused of wrongdoing
46. Conducting heresy trials of members who have doubts or who think differently upon the Scriptures
47. Defining apostasy as against the organization instead of against God
48. Being quick to disfellowship instead of making efforts to restore persons who have done something wrong
49. Unnecessarily and abusively shunning members even for minor infractions such as smoking or not complying with the whimsical directives of elders, thereby causing personal and family turmoil that often results in immense guilt, shame, fear, depression, bitterness, hatred, murder and suicide
50. Prohibiting fellowship with disassociated persons who show no inclination toward causing dissension
51. Showing favoritism by advising innocent victims to “leave it to Jehovah” instead of the elders taking decisive action to deal with some members who have been accused of harmful wrongdoing.
52. Ignoring or minimizing clear evidence of child molestation and other abuses simply because only one witness is available to testify against the member accused of such serious wrongdoing
53. Covering over and hiding damaging facts about the JW organization
54. In many cases, neglecting the care of their own sick and elderly members who no longer have the strength and energy to attend all the meetings and to be regular in “field service” as they did for most of their lives and last but not least...
55. Blatantly lying to the public by declaring to news media that members may leave the organization at any time, of their own free will and without any repercussions from the organization
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smiddy
BOTR
Is your pc up and running ?
smiddy