I guess the real point here, Change Name, is either you are swayed by this basic hypocrisy of the WT being in the UN, or you're not. The details are not relevant, the reactions of other people and their personal treatment of the evidence is not relevant. Form your own opinions. Ignore this issue entirely if you feel that JWs are closest to the truth and you really want to be a part of the organization. Personally, I was less shaken by this than by a few other aspects of the religion when I learned the truth about them.
How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?
by Change Name 130 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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konceptual99
Hey ChangeName,
I was not aware of the JJ website you linked to until I read this thread. I took a look and found it pretty interesting.
I would agree that on the face of it, it does present some compelling arguments that would suggest those that are calling out the WTS on this matter are exaggerating the facts and making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The problem is that it does not address the real issue - i.e. if any rank & file member of the congregation had even an informal relationship with a disapproved organisation then they would face some kind of sanction, perhaps even disfellowshipping, from the congregation. The WTS are hypocrites in the regard regardless of their intent in becoming an affiliated NGO.
I then read the PDF on jwfacts which is an excellent analysis of the JJ site. It presented a number of arguments and points that completely pull the rug from under the JJ stance and get to the nub of the matter. This article does anything but bury it's head in the sand. It examines each point and presents an honest appraisal of the merit of each as objective statements of fact.
After having looked at original content on the matter, the JJ site and the jwfacts essay, I have to conclude that the NGO issue remains a standout example of WTS hypocrisy, evidence that the what the WTS says and what it does are different and yet another case of where bending the rules to suit your purposes is something the WTS is prepared to do anytime it wants but will never afford the same luxury to dear old Bro. or Sis. Lowly.
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cantleave
change name - did you read the JWFacts PDF? If you did you would see the fallaciousness of the Jehovah's Judgement arguments.
At the end of the day, the society gave ytheir allegiance to the UN, and even wrote positive articles about them in the magazines. This makes them at best, hypocrites and in their own words, fornicators with the harlot.
Now go back under your bridge and try intimidating billy goat gruff.
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DATA-DOG
Is their information less fact based than your information?
What part of " lies cannot be facts " can you not understand?
Here are my questions again. ( WITH MY ANSWERS )
1) Do you find yourself ignoring anything that Jehovah's Witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an NGO?
A: NO.
2) Do you find yourself automatically discounting this interesting information? [link]
A: NO. When I read them a year ago I was convinced that certain ones were distorting the issue. Then the letter from the UN stating that a membership was not needed to access the Library was disclosed. This letter proved that either the GB, the Lawyers for the WTBTS or both were being dishonest.
3) Do you find yourself searching for a counter argument to this information in order to keep your belief that the "Watchtower" is an evil publishing corperation?
A: NO.
4) If you answer yes to any of those questions, what does that mean about you personally?
A: Not applicable.
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Change Name
Hi again wasblind - Who is Alice?
Hi Dismissing Servant - To claim that I am somebody else gives the one making the accusation an excuse not to answer my questions. Its a ploy to dismiss me and my question. It shows the lurkers that it is okay to not think beyond what your current beliefs about the WTS are.
Hi again Witness My Fury - As I have stated on many occations, this is the only time and handle that I have been on this forum. You are looking for excuses to demonize me.
Hi there Emery - I have a career and a family. This forum is not my life. I come here when I have some time.
Hi there jgnat - To me it is not a scandal. It is pretty black and white. It is these rumormongers and instigators that mislead their readers into believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses did something wrong when they became an NGO/DPI to gather information.
Hi there Finklestein - An act of hypocrisy. Huh. Do you truly understand Babylon the Great and the Wild Beast? Or were you one of those "Jack JW's" who attended but did not believe, choosing to listen with half an ear? No egg on my face.
Hi there Imposters are Doomed - I did not choose my icon and have no been able to figure out how to change it. But please, keep on insulting me.
Hi there problemaddict - I am always open to a different opinion on a subject. It has to be accurate and with evidence used in an honest way. When a group of Christians tells the world that the UN is the political expression of God's government on the earth, then people should reconsider what the source is saying. When a group of Christians tells the world that the UN is the only hope for mankind, then it would be time to reconsider that source. The Jehovah's Witnesses did neither. Mainstream Christianity has. I do not find it hypocritical to tell people that the UN is not the political expression of God or that the UN is not the only hope for mankind. The UN has nothing to do with God. It is mankinds creation. The Jehovah's Witnesses used this "government" as a source for information gathering about the different countries of the world. They did not put it on a pedestal as the government all should bow to because it is the only hope for mankind.
I do not know anything about one being disfellowshiped for joining the YMCA. I know that people are disfellowshiped for their attitude and lifestyle. If their attitude is not Christian, or if their lifestyle is in direct opposition to how a Christian should live, and they are vocal in their decisions, they will be disfellowshiped. This is what I have read about and what I have observed.
Hi again Dismissing Servant - " The society said they wanted acess to the library......which they could have had anyways. "
I do not know what their mindset was in regards to becoming a NGO/DPI. I think most, who can reason for themselves, believe that the reason they became an NGO/DPI is for information gathering. I am sure that they may have became the NGO/DPI to help battle countries who refuse to give them the right to preach their message (without jail time) about the kingdom of God and to be recognized as a religion. Again, nothing wrong with that if it helps increase their preaching activities.
Now, why would you insult a group of people by calling them Borg? I find it insulting. Why do you not? If you must present your views about their society, why do you need to insult them? I have always told my sons if they could not express themselves without cussing or insulting, then their views are diminished in the eyes of the ones listening.
Hi again Witness My Fury - The 1st century Christians were a cult. The Hebrews were a cult. All religions are a cult. Your attempt at insult was wasted.
Hi there Blues Brothers - http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/thechangingworldofngos.html Could it be that they did change? Read the information and decide for yourself. Do not rely on others to make the decision for you.
Here is the summary of their findings:
Summary
- Apostates quote requirements from the 2005 brochure when it is clear from copies of earlier brochures that they have changed.
- In 1994 the UN said a new relationship between the UN and its NGOs was being created.
- In 1998 the General Assembly of the UN acknowledged that the NGO world was entering a new era.
- In 1999 the Global Policy Forum said the NGO world is changing very fast.
- It is clear that requirements and expectations for NGOs changed over the 1990s.
Hi again Emery - I do not know what TTATT is. You must remember, the JW's are a group of humans who are sinful and fall short. They can and will make mistakes.
Hi there 00DAD - See my message to Blues Brothers.
Hi there Amelia Ashton - I know of Jimmy Swaggart. Again, those who oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses blow this way out of proportion.
Hi there Honesty, trujw and Dismissing Servant - eh, I am still with this thread. I have a life and cannot be on this forum 24/7. I am still waiting for my intitial questions to be answered honestly by you folks instead of getting a play by play from you.
Hi there Data-Dog - I am still not understanding why it was wrong for them to become an NGO/DPI for information gathering. If the JW's are the only Christians (or as you said it, God's true channel), then why would it be wrong for them to gather information from the source for its time?
Hi there Finkelstein - You post something about the 2006 OSCE Human Dimension Implementation Meeting but do not tell us what the meeting was about and why the JW's were there. I have never heard of the OSCE.
"ODIHR organizes an annual meeting in Warsaw to review the implementation of a broad range of OSCE human dimension commitments, including in the areas of human rights and fundamental freedoms, elections, the promotion of tolerance, use of the death penalty, and the rights of national minorities." [link]
I so no reason why they should not be at this meeting. They are looking out for the well being of other Jehovah's Witnesses. I am sure they were not there because of elections. There were there because of religious freedoms. From what I have read, they are a champion for religious freedoms. Why think the worst of them when there is no proof of it?
I am not sure why you think it outrageous to this that the JW's became an NGO/DPI because of information gathering. If they became an NGO/DPI " to find out information about health, ecological and social problems", why think anything but that? If they state this was their goal, information gathering, why call them liars? If they became an NGO/DPI in addition to finding out information about health, ecological and social problems ,to help progress their ministry in lands like Russia and China, would that not be a good thing?
Hi there Uncantnome - Okay, got it. You discount anything presented by the JW's because you lack interest. Your interest centers around bringing down "the Watchtower" and will read anything (even if it is factually wrong) to feed this interest. Gotcha.
Hi there Brant Jones - I cannot begin to understand your position. I do not know of the doctrinal view change of neutrality in the 90's nor the generation change before 2000. It appears you lost the trust and loyalty for your former brothers. When you vocalized it is when your life started to unravel. They then lost the trust and loyalty for you. You felt that they treated you like a dog. That is your perspective. How did you treat them? Do you think that they felt you treated them like dogs? How do you think they believed you treated them? Do you care?
I am sure they disfellowshiped you for apostasy against Christianity not because of your refusal to accept their apostasy. Your position was contrary to theirs. You believed that they hung out with the Wild Beast and accepted the UN as the political expression of God's government on earth and their only hope for mankind. I am not sure why, but this your reasoning.
Hi there Crisis of Conscience - Okay. I am a troll and a brainwashed cult member. Been called a brainwashed cult member since before I started studying with the Witnesses. I think it has been about 20 years now that I have been a cult member of 1. Maybe you should not read my words if I have brainwashed you so you can deprogram yourself. I think the next week watching the 700 Club should do it with a few Hail Mary's thrown in there would do the trick.
Hi there Banladore - oh yes. Jehovah's Witnesses do bury our heads in the sand. That is why sites like these are available:
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/
http://dismythed.blogspot.com/
http://defendingthenwt.blogspot.com/
http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/
http://peaceandbeauty.wordpress.com/
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/
http://www.witnessoftruth.com/articles/index.html
Hi there 00DAD - Yeah. It seems as if you have never seen Welcome Back Kotter.
Hi again Satanus - Brainwashing and conditioning. You may think you are not brainwashed, but you never can know, can you? Its not that I dislike cutting and pasting. It has its place. I jwant you to think and answer for yourselves. Most people of your community rely on JW opposers arguements and reasonings.
Hi there Apognophos - Emotional trauma from Trolls and Apologists. I understand. They think all newbies to this forum are trash and should not be tolerated. They do not want opposing views and try to squash anything positive about the Jehovah's Witnesses. Many will not contemplate what Jehovah's Witnesses have to say and just want to lash out. This has been my experience here.
I have the WT CD and read the first few articles from the Awakes. Nothing wrong with what they have said. Did they build up the UN as the only hope for mankind.
Hi there Londo111 - You can claim I do not understand mind control, indocrination, conditioning and brainwashing works. I think I have a working understanding of what it is. All Abrahamic religions use it in one way or another. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that you must make your mind and your life that of what their understanding of Christianity is or you will not be raised to Paradise. Muslims force you to believe that Muhammad is the only prophet and that all else will die in agonizing pain and torment. Mainstream Christianity touts that you must believe that God is to be worshiped or you will be sent to hell to suffer for all eternity. The Jews believe... well, it depends again on the sect. But some sort of consequence will happen to you if you are not Jewish.
Hi again punkofnice - Who says I am counting time. Sheesh, you gotta read all my responses. I have already covered this
Hi there Wholly - As far as I remember, they teach that the Wild beast is the UN. The JW's teach that you should not have the spirit of this world guide you and they also teach that this system of things is not of Jehovah's design, but that of Satan's.
Hi again Finkelstein - Beliefs are your truths. Your belief is that the JW's joined the UN. The truth is that they registered as an NGO/DPI. Your belief is that by joining the UN they became hypocrites because by joining the UN they must endorse the UN as God's political expression of God kingdom on earth and the only hope for mankind. The truth is that they registered as an NGO/DPI for information gathering and to protect their rights to preach the message of the Bible. They do not believe that the UN is the political expression of God's kingdom on Earth nor do they believe the UN is the only hope for mankind. Both those are Jehovah and his son Jesus.
Hi again Apognophos - Read my message to Finkelstein. I think reactions are telling of the person I am talking to. I believe we will have many discussion on your issues.
That is all the time I have for today.... 2 hours is too long to be on this computer. I may be back by Saturday... depending on what I plan on doing.
Thank you again - CN
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00DAD
ChangeName,
Thank you for responding.
You are still missing the point: According to WT rules, if YOU went to the YMCA to swim in their pool, then YOU could be DF'd for apostasy. The WTBTS is the one that labelled the UN as the Scarlet Colored Beast, the "Disgusting thing standing in a place it ought not."
We did not make this stuff up, the WT leaders did. They hypocritically broke their own rules, not just for a "quick swim" in a YMCA pool, but for a decade in the UN Library.
While they have acknowledged their error and changed, they did it privately and failed to sanction themselves. If an elder in a local congregation did such a thing he would be deleted as an elder at the very least and possibly--maybe even probably--be disfellowshipped. Yet all of the GB members continued to maintain their positions as if nothing ever happened. Why is that?
This is a textbook example of religion hypocrisy. Which is, by the way, one of the things that the WTBTS is always pointing to as proof that other religions are false. In reality, they are no different, they just pretend to be.
It really is that simple.
00DAD
PS - I loved WBK when I was a kid.
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Londo111
Change Name,
Thank you for your reply. Do you understand the BITE model of mind control? In his second book, Steven Hassan talks about the popular misconceptions of mind control and one them is, “Everything is mind control.” There is a definitely a spectrum and what we refer to as mind control is at the extreme end, enforced by excommunication and shunning.
In regard, mainstream Christianity, I am a mainstream Christian. Fundamentalists Christianity definitely believes in eternal torment and loves to beat people with that horrific teaching. But within mainstream Christianity, there is freedom of thought and expression. Even for those who believe in “hell”, many describe it as separation from God. I myself believe in universal reconciliation and have expressed that at the church I go to—not one person has objected thus far. Even within the evangelical community, there is growing movement toward this idea.
Irrespective of that, there is not one single view in mainstream Christianity as you’ve described. For instance, I’ve talked with a Methodist pastor who believes in “soul sleep”, just as JWs do, and believes in an earthly resurrection. Other people within his church and denomination have other views. But there is freedom of thought. People can use their own conscience and powers of reason to determine these matters. Nobody gets expelled, excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or shunned. People respectfully hear another person’s viewpoint, even if they hold to another view.
In the church I go to, some don’t believe in the Trinity, some do. But when it comes to working together, serving the community, doctrinal issues like that do not interfere in the unity or love. In mainstream Christainity, the thought is expressed in this motto, “Unity in essentials, in non-essentials Freedom, in all things Love.” There are only a few essentials, perhaps just one (believing that Jesus is Lord).
If a person truly understands the message of Christianity, they will embrace Christian Freedom, and this is the opposite of mind control.
I don’t think people can be put into one-size-fits-all stereotypes. From reading your many expressions, I feel that you’ve heard many stories about former JWs and are often repeating these stereotypes. You do not understand former JWs. You must learn to treat individuals as individuals and not assume what they believe or why they believe it. Only God and Christ can read hearts.
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zed is dead
Change name,
I guess you just can't fix stupid!
zed
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Emery
Hi again Emery - I do not know what TTATT is. You must remember, the JW's are a group of humans who are sinful and fall short. They can and will make mistakes.
TTATT = The Truth About The Truth
I don't expect perfection as we are all imperfect and sinfulful. I can deal with mistakes, but I will not put up dishonesty.
Change Name, the Watchtower has not been honest to it's adherence. They do not provide transparency to its members as they have hidden and white washed their history and mistakes. They demand absolute authority that isn't deserved or backed up by ANY evidence. Research their claims as to their being chosen in 1919 and you will see how they do not just claim to be imperfect, but divinely appointed with all of Christ's belongings on the earth --- meaning they own YOU.
Change Name, your faith is a borrowed faith, it is temporary and flexible. It changes at the quim of 8 men in Brooklyn that you have possibly never met. Your faith has to be shielded away from any challenge as it is too fragile and cannot hold up to scrutiny. As a JW you have to attack people's motives, integrity, or beliefs before ever considering the questions asked. The foundation to the organization is terribly weak.
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punkofnice
Hi again punkofnice - Who says I am counting time. Sheesh, you gotta read all my responses. I have already covered this
Oh, so sorry.
Why would I read ALL your posts? There's lots of other stuff to read.
