Wanted - A 'Reverse Witness'

The Song Remains The Same

So the Want-to-be-JW wife is getting harder to keep from believing all the nonsense that the WT spouts. It is really getting me down as it simply does not compute from my perspective (and many on here I suppose) how and why rational and sane individuals would swallow all the garbage... The phrase I hate the most is "imperfect men", it gets me so wound up when I point out the flip-flops and flaws, and then I ask how anyone would follow 'imperfect men'... up next is "but I truely believe they ARE god's chosen organisation", but I cannot find any basis for that belief whatsoever... Arrgghhh.

She went to some big meeting last weekend and came back all happyified. I sent her with a list of things to look out for that the WT was doing/using (hypocrisy, fear, guilt, and if the people were really happy not like 'dinner-party happy'). Apparently she saw nothing of the sort . The funny thing was she described some guy saying that being in god's organisation was like being in the olympics and having to be able to jump 'so high' just to be considered for the high jump team... I had to point out this small hypocritical point of them using a comparison with something that they themselves actually ban for members, i.e. competitive sports

Anyway, the point of the post is this; it would be really great to find a witness (a 'reverse witness') in every congregation that could be relied upon to steer away those that are considering joining, especially those that are completely random-walk-off-the-street types who have a loving, caring and concerned (non-JW) family or friends around them who know that it will all end in tears... the reverse witness can go through the motions but in the process of proving the WT points actually show that they are not so, and thus cast huge doubt in the mind of the study and ultimately get them away/out. It can be done to a small or large degree. Kind of like, "So let's look at topic X. Here is what the WT says, and now let's check the bible. Oh, it says something different. Hmmm. Well I guess the WT may have go that wrong. Let's move on shall we?" I read in a thread that nobody ever really managed to convert people to JW-ism anyway, so it wouldn't get noticed in terms of personal stats .

Where can I find one!!!!

Ding

You may need to back off awhile because your wife seems to be at the stage where whenever you point out anything negative about the organization she will defend it vigorously.

The WTS uses direct opposition as "proof" that they have the truth and that Satan is persecuting them for it.

Questions often work better than declarations that the organization is wrong, but they can't come across as sarcastic in tone or you'll be falling into the "direct opposition = proof its the truth" syndrome again.

Sometimes (not always) it helps to reverse roles by asking your wife how she would feel if she saw you getting deeper and deeper into Scientology (or Mormonism or some other religion of which she was leery). What would she advise you to do by way of checking things out?

You might ask her what she would say to you if you told her that you are getting more convinced that it's the truth and that her opposition proves that Satan is opposing your involvement. How would she react if you tried to get her to meet with the elders or leaders of that religion and start attending the meetings? How could she get you to slow down and investigate that religion before committing yourself?

Hopefully she will say something about checking out their history, listening to what people who have left have to say and the like.

If she tells you to check them out by the Bible, you might say that these leaders say that no one can really understand the Bible or its principles without their writings and organization. How would she feel about that? What could she say to you to get you to look at those claims objectively?

The Song Remains The Same

@ding, Thanks. You are probably, and unfortunately, right. But it is hard to do in practice.

Note to self - try not to point out the glaringly obvious flaws in the WTBTS doctrine, ethics and logic, or that it's a magazine company...

The Searcher

You could get your wife to ask her instructor a simple question - What will happen to me if I get baptized and then find that I do not agree with some teachings of the WTBTS, can I still be one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Of course, the truthful answer is that she'll be disfellowshipped if she voices her different opinion, thereby losing all her new friends.

I'm an active Witness, so ask her the question which put me on the search for TTATT: "If Jesus died for my sins, how on earth can my own death wipe out my sins?".

The Org claims that Romans 6:7 has to be taken literally, thereby eliminating the need for a ransom sacrifice.

Even Clarke's Commentary on the Scriptures, written in the 19th century, correctly pointed out that Paul was speaking about figuratively "dying" to one's former sinful life!

Best wishes.

problemaddict

Hey same song. A few things to think about in order to adjust your approach.

First ding is right, since she has already affirmed to you that she believes they are "God's chosen organization". Ask her questions like why does she believe that? What sealed it for her? When did they become so? Etc...

These are important things to talk to her about. Not just flip flops. Flip flops are explained away exactly as she has done so. Most are minor, and quite frankly, all religions make minor flip flops on certain things. This is too easily explained away. You have to focus on the indefensible. Blood doctrine is a good place to start. Bloodguilt, the inconsistancies of the blood fraction allowance, and the fact it is enforced through communal shunning. Its like the mafia. Once you in, you can never get our without taking a bullit. Because of that you just want her to take her time.

Talking to her about wether the people are really happy or not is another losing battle. Yes there are actuall happy JW's, and many are fantastic stand out people. You don't know all of these people and their belief system seems odd to you, but she is developing friendships that she didn't have before, and that is a powerful motivator. Lastly, the religion does NOT BAN organized sports. So when you make comments that are not true, or are embelished (they certainly say they are a bad idea), you look like the unreasonable one.

Deal with facts not fiction or eaggeration. With reality this strange you don't need it anyways.

problemaddict

I like searches idea. Ask her to ask her study that wuestion, without prompt. Then have the research already in hand when he dances.

Also regarding your "reverse witness" hypothesis, I think that person would be found out way to easily.

nonjwspouse

The Song Remains the same, are we the same person? Except mine is a husband that is a wannabe soon to be baptised, and I, the never been JW wife knows 100x more about this organization that he knows, yet he refuses to listen to one word. It is SO D@mN hard not to say things back to them. To call on their untruths.

It's about to seriously, literlally, drive me batty. My health is sufferng and our marriage is teetering on the edge.

It ia very sad to see and feel the destruction that organization can do to a family.

Ding

I edited my post above to add a possible method of approach.

I hope those ideas prove helpful in getting your loved one to see things from your point of view.

By choosing another religion for your role reversal questions, you avoid attacking the WTS.

The Song Remains The Same

@ding (again) - yes noticed that edit, and all very useful. Have tried some of those but will adapt based on your advice. Again many thanks...

@searcher - good point, may try that too.

@problem - thanks for correcting me about competitive sports. I had it in mind they discourage/don't allow participation? And I know an insider would get found out, I'm just wishful thinking right now...

@nonjwspouse - I think I know exactly how you feel . This site is great for learning how to deal with this situation, and the folks on here have all so far responded really helpfully in the few threads I've started. I'm glad I found it. Good luck to you too!

problemaddict

Hey Song,

You are right that they discourage it. But they do not BAN it. Different things. As crazy as it is when you are the sane one, you have to watch that what you say is always accurate.

Wife: My husband says you all ban extracrricular sports, is that true?

Elder: No of course not. Where did he get that from. The internet?

Wife: Yeah. I think so.

Elder: Well you can't trust any of those people. Wouldn't you rather come to the source to get the correct information about someone? We do not "ban" competative sports. in fact, our brthers play basketball many times after meeting. Many of our young ones have chosen to forego association that they may consider dangerous to their spirituality, and even take up more time in their preaching work which is the most noble extracirricular activity we could engage in wouldn't you say? We admire their choices and thank jehovah for our young ones.

Wife: Yeah! He is clearly getting bad info.

Aftermath.......everything you find on-line is tainted and wrong. Remember, they are telling her that persecusion will come from her own house hold....vis a vis.....you!

Wanted - A 'Reverse Witness'

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