by irondork 42 Replies latest jw friends
Where is your proof that the words malakoi and arsenokoitais are used in the 1st century to mean homosexuality ? that is what you contend by saying that 1Cor etc calls homosexuality a sin.
Please list your proof, not just your opinion.
The Bible cannot mean now what it did not mean then.
so is that an admission you were jumping the gun about me reading the links?
Unstopableravens: so is that an admission you were jumping the gun about me reading the links?
The above comment is the finest example of how they simply CAN NOT..... WILL NOT address the evidence provided. They will skirt it, dance around it, side-swipe it, ignore it, try to change it to a different channel... but they are incapable of addressing it head on.
And then they say, "But I DID answer your question. I'm sorry you can't see it."
Like the point you brought up, Phizzy: Much information was offered about the words malakoi and arsenokoitais, historical context, etc... It was shown in detail what these word mean, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, don't mean. For the translaters to translate those words broadly as "homosexual" has been demonstrated to be in error. Why can't the unstopableravens, et al. address that point?
Phizzy, we just have to walk away.
GMA, Lost... thanks for the thumbs up. It's easy to get lost in all the heat and negativity surrounding this topic and so easy to forget that there are many, many people out there who have our backs.
You folks are very much appreciated!
iron; you have to be kinding me! phizzys claim was i did not read your links, i responeded that i did and the proof is my comments in the links, than he brings up the greek words, so if anyone is avoiding the issue its him not me. i have been respectful and honest in my comments in thoses links , see it how you wish. just wish ppl would stop pulling out the victim card all the time.
I've looked everywhere. I can't find this victim card of which you speak.
And, not that it is YOUR responsibility to provide an answer to the question that Phizzy brought up in this thread, and was asked repeatedly in the other threads, nevertheless, the question remains unanswered. In true form, the anti-gay side of this debate simply will not... CAN NOT address the information provided head on because to do so would require them to look at their error in the eye and see it for what it is.
It's okay. We understand. We all used to be Jehovah's Witnesses so we all know firsthand how the process of ignoring insurmountable evidence works, for the sake of clinging to a belief system we're comfortable with.
It's okay. Really.
[Walking away now.]
God hates the gays! Thankfully he is immaginary so it doesnt matter what he thinks.
Iron
what I found interesting was, you actually prompted me to htink about a subject from a different point of view ... that is as one of humanity, a person, with feelings, thoughts, beliefs etc.
I never really could understand the semantics of the arguuements (gay - Christian) the clash, you know.
I would just think - '' i dont get it, if it says in the bible it is wrong, it goes against God's laws, he told us so, it's unnatural etc.... Jesus also said the same... so why are gays even bothered ? why dont they just go on their way and say, it don't matter none, I am what I am, i live my own life, I don't care what other people think. And I couldn't get my head around it. It was in itself a contradiction in terms, you cannot have both. just like I can't get my head around the whole gays wanting marriage etc .... because of the whole christianity thing, again, its a contradiction in terms. ''
However, since I have read your posts, I have had my eyes and mind and heart opened up a little bit more..... to new understanding from the other persons point of view.
It never once crossed my mind that a gay person could/was/is actually a Christian also. In that, a deep love and respect for God and his message. It made me realise how conflicting this scenario must be for someone in that position. Torturous. i am fortunate in that I have never adopted any attitudes of racism, bigotry, hate etc and this is how I try to raise my children. My ex-husband is another kettle of fish altogether. Racist, bigot, homo-phobic.... etc. But also spineless, cowardly, devious, deceitful and dishonest. An ignorant brain dead man. ( is why he my ex .. lol)
I would never want one of my own children to be so conflicted. It would not make a bit of difference to me if they turned out gay. I would not stop loving them. They are safe in this knowledge.
Peopel need to focus on what LOVE IS. If I had time now I would post up what the Bible says... maybe I can do it later.
regards
lost
Thanks for that Lost, I know it was addresed to Iron, but you have put in words what happened to me.
I read the articles that Iron linked to, which I doubt Unstoppable RAVINGS did, or we may have seen some answer to the points they made ? No ? maybe not, they contained "Greek words", JW's turn off at any mention of a Greek word, so do XJW's apparently. I read them and my interest was aroused, so I did further research on the Gk. words in question.
I have no axe to grind on this issue, I am a non-believer, therefore what the Bible says has no power with me, but if believers are going to use it as a rod to beat others with, and as a yardstick as to what "God" thinks on matters, then as even Unstoppable admits in a post, they should go by what it actually says.
Now, Hermaneutics is not an easy or exact science, but if we are honest and not just simply wishing to perpetuate and reinforce our predjudices based on what we "think" the Bible says, we need to give this ancient text its due and read it properly. The writers own knowledge, use of words, the morals and attitudes of the society in which he lived, the politics of the time, his own agenda etc etc all need to be given attention.
It has been shown time and time again we cannot rely 100% on any translator or translation, there is always bias, if we really want to get to the heart of what the writer was saying, we must put the effort in ourselves.
It seems to me that no one yet has proved wrong what I said above:
The Bible neither condemns homosexuality or homosexual relationships.
I'm not a 'big scholar' Biblicly or greek etc. But I am a believer.
I cannot say one way or theother whether or not the bible
1. Condemns homosexuality
2. Condemns homosexual relations.
as I have not done enough indepth research to put forward a valid argument. I never voice big opinions on anything unless I have done the research. i prefer to say, I don't know. Just like we don't know the truth about a lot of things as they have been misconstrued and hidden from us, BY MAN.
However, my understanding so far, is this.
Both the OT and the NT, do comment on same sex relations as being immoral ? sinful ? against God's natural laws? Am I correct on this ?
However. The Bible in full also tells us about sin, imperfection, evil etc ... and why these things are so. Satan corrupted God's perfect creation. God tells us this, and he tells us the whys, what fors, adn the end result. The finish of things.
We as humans are collateral damage in this eccliastical battle ( i know i spelt that wrong, lol ) We are not God, therefore we have no idea what he is thinking. We can only try the best that we can to live a life in line with goodness, if we so wish.
Ultimately it is our choice as individuals to walk our own path in life. We have no right to force our beliefs/opinions/likes/dislikes etc on another human being. We have no right to cause suffering to another human being, this directly goes against what Jesus taught. If true christians modeled themselves on the basis of jesus's teachings, not mans opinions, we would all be a lot happier, and there would be less evil in this world. But, it is what it is, and we are where we are.
Life is a journey, it is to be lived. All anyone ever wants is love and happiness and an easy passage. Who is anyone to deny this to another.
Gay is not a fashion statement. It is a condition. simple as. Right or wrong doesn't factor into it. It is a persons life we are talking about.
If there is no God, none of it matters. simple.
if there is a God and the Bible has truth. Well it is between that person and God to settle the matter between them. How do we not know that God's attitude to a gay might be not be like this '' it's ok, don't be conflicted, don't torture yourself unecessarily, I KNOW, don't despair. I have the answers, I know how I am going to fix everything and put things back to their origianl purpose. When the time is right I will give you the answers. Have faith. I love you, I will help you. One day everyone will have the answers.
one way or another we re either going to die, problem solved - or we will enter into the big A. No sense worrying about it too much really is there.
regards lost
