I read it. I believe in NDEs, but I agree that terms like “proof” and “science” were the wrong terms to use, because I’ve only his word for it, and no independent measurements or observations of his account. It would be better for him to say, “I’m a neurologist. I believe in science. However, my experience has proven to me that there is an afterlife.”
Proof of Heaven book - anyone read it?
by jay dubless 26 Replies latest jw friends
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jay dubless
So true that one can't prove such a journey to be true. You have to believe him, or not. I had to re-read the 3 chapters about the 3 different realms several times to try and really get ahold on it. Ruderedhead, just read those specific chapters again and see what you think. But the chapters are short, and it's an easy read. I think the concept of not having a body is very foreign to most of us. The point he made about having 360 degree vision was outstanding. I never imagined that. As far as the terms he used; earthworm's eye view, gateway, core, om...he had to come up with something, since there were no welcome signs.
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Anony Mous
I think I mentioned it on this board before. I work in neuroscience, this book is neither scientific nor neutral. It's not a scientifically accepted viewpoint and most scientists will outright reject even reviewing the work because of both the format as well as the inherent bias. Those that have reviewed it speak of internal inconsistencies and non-neutrality.
Can the man have delusions because of his accident? Sure, being a neuroscientist doesn't make you immune from it.
Just because someone says they're a neurosurgeon, doesn't make them the expert on NDE or what happens during those events especially not when they themselves are highly motivated by both religion and money to produce such stories. Does being a Catholic and a geologist make you an expert on the Flood? How about a JW biologist claiming that we were created?
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jay dubless
Anthony Mouse, did you read the book? You didn't say so. And who said he is an expert? You sound like a JW instructing us not to read, let alone evaluate, any outside material. Sheesh. There seems to be a lot of residual effect of being in the Society around here. And I am not asking scientists, I am asking ex JWs. Next please.
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transhuman68
Next please.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/227785/1/So-what-happens-when-we-die
Everything has been chewed over a few times on this forum...
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cofty
Cofty, sounds like you are still letting others do your thinking for you. Didn't we abandon that principal when we left the Society? - Jay Dub
JayDub you are the one "placing" your new Truth TM book with all your friends and family.
I referrred you to a very highly qualified scientist in this field who pointed out the fundamental scientific error in Alexander's assertions. He provided evidence and references to other scientific papers.
You didn't bother to read it, instead you responded by telling me I am acting like a JW - the irony!
There is no afterlife - no heaven - no spirit world of any kind.
Keep reading, welcome information that challenges your pet thoeries, keep thinking, stop insulting people who disagree with you.
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scotoma
No I haven't read it. And I don't intend to read it.
There are millions of books I haven't read and that I don't intend to read.
I had written a longer response but when I read the previous discussion on this topic I realized I couldn't really add anything to what has already been said.
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yourmomma
the thing that amazed me about this book was how people were accepting this clowns assertions, when a simple google search reveals that what he stated happend is scientifcly impossiblem, and has been dubunked. i mean, i think even publications like newsweek had this on their cover as if there was legitimacy to it. and it was a pathetic appeal to authority that was not even accurate. that is akin to putting snuffleupagus on the cover with the heading "Respected Doctor Talks To Imaginary Friend! Snuffy May Not Be Imaginary Afterall!" lol
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EntirelyPossible
So it is written from a scientific standpoint. I've given away a few copies, and passed my own along to close friends. We enjoy discussing it. I feel his story is credible.
No it isn't and why?
Cofty, sounds like you are still letting others do your thinking for you.
Why don't you simply answer his question rather than attack him personally (and ignorantly)?
So true that one can't prove such a journey to be true.
Doesn't make sense.
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Xanthippe
Yes I have read it Jay, I got it from my local library. It is difficult for Alexander to assert that he had consciousness during coma because he can only describe the events in his mind during coma. Other NDE accounts I have read describe verifiable events in the room, in other parts of the building or even in other cities while undergoing NDE.
Some interesting things I noted were that he had never looked into NDE accounts previously because he thought they were impossible and dismissed them as he was trained to do. After this experience he did read about those of other people and found many similarities. Previously when many of his patients told him of their experiences he, as a scientist, had dismissed them out of hand as all of his colleagues did also. That doesn't strike me as scientific approach to anything.
Also he raises a subject that I have often thought about, the placebo effect. This is where some patients in a study are given inert pills. Often some of the patients on the useless medicine improve and this is known as the placebo effect. Alexander points out that scientists recognise this as a known effect and acknowledge the brain's role in physical health but only bemoan it as something that is problematic when conducting a drug trial because the placebo effect confuses the results. He asks wouldn't it be more interesting to find out what the pleacebo effect is, how is it possible for belief in the brain to effect physical health?
I think that this guy can't win. He is described by critics as someone who cuts brains but does not study them! WTF! Let's hope he studied them before he cut them! Before his book people who had NDEs, with their anecdotal evidence, were dismissed as - not a scientist, not a brain surgeon. Now this neurologist is being dismissed as a liar and an attention- seeking money- maker.