by Terry 38 Replies latest watchtower bible
LARS:
So presuming Jesus' sacrifice was not that significant when it saves ALL OF MANKIND, simply is missing the point.
mP:
If jesus got resurrected then he didnt really die, so the so called sacrifice is null and void. Its like paying a debt and taking it back 3 days later.
Lars
Plus, Christ's sacrifice saves BILLIONS of people, so it is more significant from that point of view.
mP:
I take exception to this, because its a stupid statement. The only person Jesus sacrificed himself to was his own father, who could have smply forgiven everyone but no he lowers himself to the standards of savages who think human sacrifices are the answer to everything. Thats utterly cruel and backwards. Why couldnt Jehovah simply forgive everyone. After all he sets the rules right ?
Lars:
REGARDING JESUS BEING CALLED A "NAZARENE" -- This is a play on words, because "Nazareth" is a reference to a branch and thus "branch town." A branch or a twig is a reference to a eunuch, that is, someone we would claim was "gay." So it would appear that Jesus would be known as a eunuch which is exchangeable for being called a "Nazarene." So this is a clever play on words. It's the gospel's way of confirming that per the OT, Jesus was supposed to be a eunuch/nazarene. Interesting.
mP:
Not quite. Its a play on the fact that Nazareth was unknown to the OT, and Matthew is trying to be a smart arse and pretend that Nazarite and the town are close enough.
mP:
If jesus got resurrected then he didnt really die, so the so called sacrifice is null and void. Its like paying a debt and taking it back 3 days later.
LARS:
Yes, he really died for parts of 3 days. But it was not a long time. What you are also missing is that once he was born as a perfect human, he had to give up that human body as a sacrifice. That's why he must piggy-back an imperfect body at the time of the 2nd coming to become human again. Tha's why Christ dwells in my imperfect body. So besides dying, he also had to give up access to his perfect body of the 1st coming.
But you missed my point. My point was that that simple act, whether or short or long, difficult or not, was necessary to save YOU! Therefore it was more significant than any other death. You can't minimize the significance. Just imagine say 8 billion people not having a second chance at life! That one sacrifice made all the difference for all those people. Doesn't that earn some respect, some gratitute? Some recognition? I think it does. Why try to minimalize it? Even if he died for just 2 seconds, it was necessary -- then he had to give up the right to his perfect body. Since this was "once for all time" and it wasn't necessary to come back in a perfect body, he is using my body now. But all this is covered in scripture.
If you want to throw away your own life, that's up to you. It means you don't value life and thus maybe you don't desereve what you don't appreciate. Without life, you can't post nonsense. Think about it!
mP:
I take exception to this, because its a stupid statement. The only person Jesus sacrificed himself to was his own father, who could have smply forgiven everyone but no he lowers himself to the standards of savages who think human sacrifices are the answer to everything. Thats utterly cruel and backwards. Why couldnt Jehovah simply forgive everyone. After all he sets the rules right ?
LARS:
ROFL! You don't understand. By doing it this way, God is able to get rid of Satan and the rebel angels. So sure, living in imperfection for a while is painful, but the end result is worth it, especially if the righteous will get eternal life. They soon will forget this painful episode of their lives. The way this was set up was the best way to get everything done, once for all time.
THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN PERSON NECK! Do you want to continue living, or not? Are you going to accept Christ's sacrifice for YOU, or would you rather rebel with Satan and be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity? The choice is yours! If eternal life is not good enough for you, then God has given you the choice to opt out! No one is forcing you to enjoy life, mP.
Concerning the phrase, "three days and three nights" of Matthew 12:40.
The NICNT-Matthew Commentary has this to say (p.491):
. . . The different phrasing of the three-day period compared with the "third day" of Matt. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64 and the "after three days" of Matt. 27:63 is due to the LXX wording, but in Semitic inclusive time-reckoning these do not denote different time periods as a pedantic Western reading would suggest. 12
Footnote 12 says:
The same phrase, "three days and three nights," occurs in 1 Sam 30:12 to denote a period which began (literally) "today three days," the day before yesterday (v. 13). Similarly in Esther a period described as "for three days, night and day" (4:16) is concluded "on the third day" (5:1). It is worth noting that the partially Pharisaic delegation which requests the guard at the tomb, and which may reasonably be assumed to be recalling this, the only public pronouncement by Jesus about his resurrection, nevertheless uses the terms meta treis hemeras [literally "after three days" - Bobcat] and he trite hemera [literally "the third day" - Bobcat] to specify the period Jesus had spoken of (Matt 27:63-64). Underlying this flexible usage is the Jewish tendency to speak of a period of twenty-four hours as a day and a night, so that Jesus time in the tomb can be said to embrace (parts of) three "day-nights."
As R. T. France points out, the argument here about time is really a difference of culture: Between a much more relaxed view of time phraseology in the ANE and a modern Western world filled with wrist-watches, or as France puts it, "a pedantic Western reading."
LARS:
ROFL! You don't understand. By doing it this way, God is able to get rid of Satan and the rebel angels. So sure, living in imperfection for a while is painful, but the end result is worth it, especially if the righteous will get eternal life. They soon will forget this painful episode of their lives. The way this was set up was the best way to get everything done, once for all time.
mP:
That makes no sense, if Jehovah is the almighty why does he care what Satan thinks ? If Satan is a liar and other nasties, why would he respect this action ?
mP:
That makes no sense, if Jehovah is the almighty why does he care what Satan thinks ? If Satan is a liar and other nasties, why would he respect this action ?
LARS:
After Satan was kicked out of heaven in 1992, the angels partied for three whole days! They were so happy to get rid of him. So basically he was a total nusiance and pain in the arse! He disturbed the peace and had become corrupted. So this way, nobody has to hear him anymore! He didn't deserve the gift of life God had given him.
God knew what he was doing! He made the angels mortal just like man, so they could be killed if necessary.
Anyway, you can second guess all that has happened all you want. You can even imagine you're brilliant enough to have done something differently, but this is what was araranged and planned. God has his own priorities! He knows the whole picture. You are basing your decisions on limited information. But, listen, on Judgment Day, everybody will understand all they need to. Lots of behind-the-scenes things are going on that affect decisions. Case in point, did you realize that Jesus was married to Satan up until the rebellion? The church replaces Satan as Jesus' wife! So there are some spiritual level things going on too that you are not aware of that affected the choices.
LARS:
After Satan was kicked out of heaven in 1992, the angels partied for three whole days! They were so happy to get rid of him. So basically he was a total nusiance and pain in the arse! He disturbed the peace and had become corrupted. So this way, nobody has to hear him anymore! He didn't deserve the gift of life God had given him.
MP:
YOu didnt actually answer my question about why Jehovah needed to sacrifice his own son, and couldnt just "forgive" everyone. I dont understand why the supreme master would need to lower his standards and follow rules that some desert nobodies made up.
