Great arguments, play devils advocate for me

by logical1 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logical1
    logical1

    Pretend you're a faithful witness and devils advocate these arguments for me to help fine tune them:

    Fallacy of perfection:

    "There will be no more sickness and death in the new earth..."

    unless of course you sin, then you will die.

    But there won't be pain and suffering.... so we just won't care if our loved one dies even if they sinned?

    What happens if someone commits murder? Does God prevent them from murdering? If so that would mean they don't have free will. If God allows them to murder, and resurrects the person they killed, what about the pain they felt when they were killed? Are they given "spiritual morphine" to cope with it? Is their memory erased?

    I had it argued that our desire to sin would be erased, but obviously being perfect doesn't stop that because Adam and Eve were perfect.

    "But they gave in to temptation" I was told.

    How is that any different from now? Does perfection = superior self control and intelligence?

    Further, what about malicious intent? Satan supposedly loves to do really messed up things, yet he was originally perfect. He didn't give in to temptation, he was deviant and warped. What is to say people in the new system won't be like this? How can you prevent them from practicing their deivation without limiting free will?

    Furthermore let's critically analyze perfection:

    You eliminate sickness, easily done.

    You eliminate death... not so easily done.

    There are two ways you can die if sickness is out of the picture, accidents and malice (suicide included in malice).

    In order to prevent malice, you would have to limit free will which I discussed above.

    But what about limiting accidents?

    Today in our present condition, you would be conisdered negligent if you left your car in neutral on a hill and it rolled down the hill and killed someone.

    In the "new system" when we are "perfect" we would need to have superior intellect to calculate advanced cause and effect to prevent accidents. For example:

    Parking your truck in a specific spot might be negligent, because exactly a week later a tornado would come and blow your truck into your house killing your brother while he sits in his favorite chair. In our current level of intelligence and ability to calculate cause and effect, leaving a car in neutral on a hill would be considered negligent, but parking your car where a tornado will pick it up a week later would be considered a freak accident.

    If Jehovah gave us superior intellect to calculate advanced cause and effect, it might be considered negligent to not forsee a tornado a week later tossing our truck into someone.

    So everything is fine and dandy right?

    Wrong!

    Intelligence is directly proportionate to ability to calculate cause and effect. Unless you have INFINITE intelligence you will never be able to prevent accidents completely, you might be able to reduce them to a very low amount but they will never be completely eliminated unless you have INFINITE intelligence to calculate the INFINITE possibilities of every action.

    For example, you could park your truck there and realize that it is safe there from all tornados for the next week, year, decade, century etc. But since your intelligence is directly proportionate to how far in the future you could predict (by an unknown ratio to us lowly humans), you would never be able to completely eliminate accidents unless your intelligence is infinite.

    So Jehovah would give us infinite intelligence/wisdom right?

    But Jehovahs wisdom/intelligence is infinite!

    We will NEVER be equal to Jehovah in wisdom. The bible constantly reinforces his wisdom and intelligence is unmatched, so this could not happen.

    There is no way for both us and Jehovah to have infinite intelligence/wisdom and Jehovah to still be more wise/intelligent than us.

    Infinity = Infinity, it is as whole and legitimate as any real integer. There is no such thing as a lesser infinity, therefore saying that Jehovah has greater infinite wisdom than us is like saying that a light is on and off at the same time, or that I am exactly six feet tall and you are exactly six feet tall but you are taller than me.

    If we are not infinitely intelligent/wise we could not prevent ALL accidents from happening on our own. Therefore Jehovah would have to intervene in our lives to prevent them, essentially removing our free will.

    In order to make us truly immortal and autonomous, we would need wisdom and intelligence equal to his which would not happen.

    You might argue that we won't have free will, but this would be against God's purpose as if he didn't want us to have free will then what logic would there be for him allowing Satan to run wild and all the suffering we experience daily?

    I won't even begin to touch the argument of "Jehovah cannot lie" yet "Jehovah is all powerful", most sane Christians respond that he can lie but choose not to. Witnesses seem convinced he cannot lie.

  • LoisLane looking for Superman
    LoisLane looking for Superman

    Logical1...Is this part of the 6 hour conversation you had with your mom? lol

    My comment to you, on your comment on the above, is...Hey Smarty Pants, lol What subjects are you taking in University? lol Your give away ...You don't learn to think, like you think, by sitting at the Kingdom Hall, listening to brain-numbing talks.

    Good for you! You are free of cult thinking! Logical1, is...logical. lol

    Good night. It's past my bedtime. Nite - nite .

    Just Lois

  • logical1
    logical1

    I graduate in a month as a management major but honestly I thought of most of this stuff when I was in high school...... it just took me a while to articulate it in a way other people could understand it. For a while the concepts were trapped inside and I didn't really have the ability to express it.

  • logical1
    logical1

    PUNISHMENT FALLACY

    In the new earth we will be put to death instantly if we sin, yet today we are allowed to sin and repent. Why is that?

    Witness: "Because we're imperfect"

    But the Israelites worshipped a false idol and were ordered to be killed on the spot. They were not perfect so why are we given a free pass today?

    Witness: "Because Jehovah evaluates the circumstances and that was a different time"

    But if he evaluates the circumstances and punishes accordingly to imperfect humans, why would we have a pass today and not back then? If you are going to grant a pass, wouldn't it be to the israelites instead of us since we are way more educated and should be held to a higher standard?

    Witness: "....."

    I think the real reason we are given a "pass" today is because the society would kill us if they could, but they can't so they just "spiritually kill" us by disfellowshipping us.

    Essentially the only difference between the new earth and this one is we get a free pass if we sin now but in the new earth we will be instantly killed because there will be no neutral earthly government to keep the Watchtower in check.

    APOSTASY FALLACY

    The society does not allow free thinking, they should allow people to comment on their opinion of doctrine.

    Witness: "But they do!"

    No, they comment during the Watchtower study with carefully crafted guidelines in how the scripture or Watchtower teaching "applies" to their life. They know damn well if they challenge any core doctrine that the secret service....err I mean elders will whisk them away to the back room .

    Witness: "Yes but that is because it would be stupid to challenge something as concrete as the core doctrine, it would be like a pilot telling the airline he wanted to land in a corn field for no reason, of course they would revoke his pilot license temporarily to question his judgement"

    No that's a terrible analogy. With that logic the founder of the religion and the original "bible students" were pilots that wanted to land in corn fields because they questioned established doctrine and wanted to craft their own.

    The real reason the Watchtower doesn't allow people to question core doctrine is because if they did, the meeting would devolve into a six hour 150 person debate on the interpretation of one scripture. While this would lead to great enlightenment and free thinking, each congregation would form its own beliefs based on the arguments of local members and the Watchtower's control over its followers would crumble.

    If the Watchtowers primary objective was not control, the Watchtower study would consist of reading chapters from the bible and having the congregation members comment on their interpretations of it. This is what the bible students likely did and is healthy, free thinking and critical analysis.

    Unfortunately, this would provide no logical reason for the Watchtower to publish anything. If they have nothing to publish they have no logical reason to demand donations beyond what is needed to pay for a local meeting place.

    If the Watchtower has no money being sent to "corporate" they lose their ability to pay a bunch of people $60 a month to operate a glorified retirement home for the governing body.

    The rest of the money goes to publishing more propaganda so they can solicit more members and therefore more donations. The rest of the money is hoarded by the religions leaders, almost a billion dollars worth, which they hide in various tax free assets. It's the biggest Ponzi scheme ever but far more destructive because it ruins lives not just bank accounts.

    Witness: "I was warned about sharp tongued apostates like you! Satan is inspiring you to twist your words to hurt my faith! The bible warned that apostates would say convincing things to do this, this is a fulfillment of a prophecy!"

    Calling that a fulfillment of a prophecy is like an abusive husband telling his wife "I predict that people will call me an abusive person because I hit you, when in reality I do it because I love you"

    That is not a "prophecy", that is an evil person erasing any doubt that they weren't naive innocent in their abuse by calculating the cause and effect of their vile actions. Apostates are inspired to warn not by Satan, but by a desire to save others from the harm they faced.

    This is the same reason victims of Ponzi schemes flood message boards to warn others so they don't lose their money, or in the case of apostates... free life. It is human nature to do this. Apostates are not puppets of a supernatural force. They have the very same motivation you have to spread what you believe is a "warning" about armageddon, they want to save others from a threat.

    Witness: "But all the apostates are evidence of this being the true religion! The fact that no other religions have apostates like this proves we are true"

    Really? Pretty sure the Mormons are bigger and probably have MORE apostates. The reason Amish, Witnesses and Mormons have "apostates" and other religions don't is because they have much tighter control measures than more innocent religions.

    Witness: "........"

    HONESTY FALLACY

    I won't even begin to touch the argument of "Jehovah cannot lie" yet "Jehovah is all powerful", most sane Christians respond that he can lie but choose not to. Witnesses seem convinced he cannot lie.

  • logical1
    logical1

    I'm kind of hoping a former (or current) elder will comment on this and give me some rebuttals I might not expect.

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Hey logical1!

    Have you had a chance to look at discussions on logical or rhetorical fallacies on JWN or JWFacts?

    Those that are now fully aware of these, say the Watchtower articles are awash with them.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    My high school biology teacher (MSc) turned beet red when his lecture on Darwinian evolution was met by ingratiating smirks and guffaws from a couple of religious 16-year-olds, but he knew well enough to let it go. It comes down to fundamentalism and faith. Those (for example) who believe the Noah story is literally true will be entirely unmoved by overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. And there are those who will agree with your logic but who will draw a line in the sand when what you have to say butts up against their cherished beliefs (as in, "of course life evolved, but don't try to tell me it didn't happen intelligently.") There are many such folk in here. Where is your own line?

    I enjoyed your discourse but you are tilting at windmills, or at best preaching to the choir if I may be allowed to mix metaphors. Even the strongest evidence based arguments bounce harmlessly off cognitive dissonance. A priori arguments, no matter how logical, don't stand a chance. A faithful witness will listen to what you have to say and perhaps think you earnest but pitifully deceived. You are blind. You just don't get it. You are doomed. How sad. Smirk. Guffaw.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    i think the infinite knowledge is the difference.

  • logical1
    logical1

    Sorry if I re-invented the wheel, I will admit I have not read the books. I forgot about them actually, I will have to check them out.

    I posted portions of this on Yahoo Answers and actually got witnesses to listen (by telling them I was never baptised therefore not an apostate, but rather a strayed sheep).

    I was told by one that it was "too boring" to read. I was like, are you kidding me? Your faith is too boring to discuss? What are you doing preaching it then!?!?

    Another quoted a few scriptures, but he simply posted an argument I already countered in the text. He said that questioning doctrine causes dissention among the brothers. Of course when I pressed him about what's wrong with disssention and how it's any different than the first bible students dissenting against christendom he had no answer.

    I realize it is pretty much impossible to logically prove to someone God does not exist and I wouldn't try to do that, but I thought my perfection argument about infinite wisdom with the cause and effect/accident thing was pretty sound.

    Has that specific argument been discussed somewhere before on here or in a book? I couldn't find it so if so please point me to the link.

    Also, ucantnome what did you mean by infinite knowledge is the difference? Are you saying infinite knowledge rather than infinite intelligence is needed to cause/effect every action in order to prevent accidents? If so the same argument applies, how could we be given infinite knowledge without having more equal God?

    Also I don't think you can have infinite knowledge... knowledge is defined as acquired facts, concepts, etc. You could also define knowledge as data, for example you wouldn't have infinite knowledge until you measured the diamater of every rock in the universe, etc, but eventually you would have. I don't think knowledge, by definition can be infinite.

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Keep it simple if you are questioning their precious paradise.

    Ask if we will have free will in the paradise. Of course, they will say.

    So what will prevent us from sinning?

    Ummmmmmmmmm....they will stammer away. Usually they will come to "We will be perfect", which they know doesn't work, because like you said, same story for Adam and Eve.

    So once you get that out of the way, ask what will happen to people who sin in the new order. Will they be executed? Accordiing to how it went down with Adam and Eve, death is the sentence.

    Ask will this really be a paradise? You are living for 100,000 years with your family, and suddenly your brother gets killed because he "sinned"?

    Ask what will constitute a sin in the new order? If you have a poker night with some friends, is that a sin? If you organize a competitive sports league? Grow some tobacco and start smoking it once and a while? Brew some of your own beer and you happen to get drunk? Where is the line?

    The only approved activites I know of in the new order seem to be zoo keeping, gardening, construction, and picnics with huge fruit platters...

    That is gonna get old after a few hundred thousand years.

    Free will and JW paradise cannot exist together.

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