Quick and easy 607 question

by breakfast of champions 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    VAT 4956, which the Watch Tower Society claimed in 2011 is completely accurately and reliable for supporting their chronology, was previously denounced by the Society as an unreliable, incomplete copy.

    *** g72 5/8 p. 28 When Did Babylon Desolate Jerusalem? ***
    Nevertheless, someone may ask, Is there not an ancient astronomical tablet, “VAT 4956,” that places the thirty-seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign exactly in the same year as does Ptolemy’s Canon?
    It should not be overlooked that the source of corroborative evidence should bear the earmarks of dependability. Can this be said about “VAT 4956”? Not really. The text is not an original and it contains numerous gaps. Certain terms found therein cannot even be understood now. Twice in the text the notation hi-bi (meaning “broken off, obliterated”) appears. Thereby the scribe acknowledged that he was working from a defective copy.

    *** kc p. 186 Appendix to Chapter 14 ***
    VAT 4956: This is a cuneiform tablet that provides astronomical information datable to 568 B.C.E. It says that the observations were from Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year. This would correspond to the chronology that places his 18th regnal year in 587/6 B.C.E. However, this tablet is admittedly a copy made in the third century B.C.E. so it is possible that its historical information is simply that which was accepted in the Seleucid period.

  • BroMac
    BroMac

    WT wish that VAT4956 was the only line of evidence ever unearthed in a dig. Easy to cast doubt on 1 clay tablet as Jeffro has shown in the quotes.

    Such a shame then for the WT dis-info writers the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of Buisness contracts/invoices/reciepts that have the Babylonian Kings Name/Day/Month/Year, who reigned when the transaction was processed. Such a shame for the WT that NO KINGS are MISSING and it is impossible to then have a 20yr gap to make 587 into 607. Clay is great!

  • BroMac
    BroMac

    Here is an interesting thread that also discusses the Adda-Guppi:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/117917/1/thirdwitness-and-other-pseudo-scholars-Lets-discuss-the-Hillah-Stele

    Is it still the case that the WT society has never mentioned the Hillah Stele/ Nabon 8?

  • BroMac
    BroMac

    Well a search on WT CD 2012 shows Nothing for "Hillah Stele" or "Nabon 8". A search for "Nabon" shows 1 result, which is the Appendix 14 that Jeffro quouted from:

    *** kc p. 186 Appendix to Chapter 14 ***

    Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.

    NABON H 1, A would be the 'twin' of the above, and this one is damaged. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/Adda_Guppi_Harran.htm

    Google doesn't have much on the Hillah Stele either!
  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    BroMac: Such a shame then for the WT dis-info writers the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of Buisness contracts/invoices/reciepts that have the Babylonian Kings Name/Day/Month/Year, who reigned when the transaction was processed. Such a shame for the WT that NO KINGS are MISSING and it is impossible to then have a 20yr gap to make 587 into 607. Clay is great!

    LARS:

    This argument is moot because the Bible's NB period is LONGER than in the current extant records which the WTS has shown are documents dated as much 2 centuries later. The Babylonian Chronicle self dates it's "copy" to year 22 of "Darius" (i.e. Darius II), which is during the Persian Period. Therefore, not one of the Babylonian rulerships or their business documents are challenged by the WTS! It is the MISSING years that are at issue.

    Case in point, we have records for all 43 years of Nebuchadnezzar II, but the Bible says he ruled for 45 years. So 2 years are missing. It is easy thus to destroy the records for those extra years (2 years for Neb2, 16 years for Evil-Merodach, 2 years for Nabonidus and 6 years for Darius the Mede = 26 yearsl). Thus these surviving documents contradict nothing. But this would be a good argument for the Persian Period since that period was expanded by 82 years! So it would be important if you had thousands of documents confirming the extra years during this period, which is 30 extra years each for Darius I and Artaxerxes II for instance. But documentation is so scant, this period is called the "darkest period in human history."

    But while "clay is great," stone is better. At the burial site of the Persian kings at Naqshi-Rustam, "Artaxerxes" follows Darius I, Artaxerxes being buried between Darius I and Darius II. This would support that the king who ruled after Darius I was "Artaxerxes" which is what the Bible calls the successor to Darius I and identifies as the king who completed the temple in the 6th year of Darius I. Thus per the Bible, Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king. Now later inscriptions claiming they were father and son might have been added, but the artwork and architecture reflect something different. At Persepolis, Darius I only completed one building though starting others with Xerxes while they were co-rulers. These other buildings had to be finished by Xerxes. A palace at Babylon only took two years to build. If that was the case for Darius' palace, then you have a confirmation that Darius I only ruled for about 6 years, since the business documents from Persepolis show the compound began to be built in the 4th year of Darius I.

    In the meantime, the VAT4956 actually agrees with the "relative chronology" for the NB in the Bible, specifically, a 70-year period from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to the 1st of Cyrus. The Bible dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE and thus year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II, the year of the last deportation to 525 BCE. The VAT4956 dates year 37 of Neb2 to 511 BCE, representing the original dating. In that case, year 23 falls in 525 BCE, the same date as the Bible's dating when 455 BCE dates the 1st of Cyrus.

    So while there is zero challenge or objection to the rule of Neb2 being at least 43 years, the challenge is to the WTS to produce any documentation for a longer NB Period. The VAT4956 indirectly does this since it dates year 23 to 525 BCE as the Bible does, which requires a 70-year interval in order to date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE. Likewise, the SK400 dates year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar II to 541 BCE, giving you the exact same results.

    So it is bordering on being disingenuous or confused to mention the surviving business documents in any context that might contradict the extra 20 years inserted by the WTS.

    Also, some think since these tablets are dated that they contradict the WTS' "absolute chronology" in some way. They do not. The dates in these texts are only RELATIVE DATING, not ABSOLUTE DATING. It would be the same as me telling you that I graduated from high school in my 18th year. Does that tell you the year I graduated? No. You would only be able to know the precise year if you knew my birthdate or if some other absolute date, perhaps from an astronomical text, could be linked to some time during my life. For instance, if I recorded an eclipse of the Moon in the month of Adar in my 15th year, if you could identify that eclipse event, then you'd know the year of my birth and then you would know the year of my graduation. That's why astronomical texts are so critical to dating.

    The VAT4956's overwhelming references are to 568 BCE, especially the planetary references. But two lunar references in Lines 3 and 14 don't match 568 BCE. They both do match 511 BCE, however, and they both record the position of the moon when it passes by either sigma-Leonis or beta-Virginis, which is very measureable as far as the lunar path; the moon passes close to and nearly parallel to these stars rather than at a diagonal trajectory. Thus there are multiple levels of suspicion these two references were deliberately inserted and thus are cryptic references to the original dating for year 37 of Neb2 in 511 BCE, in which case the VAT4956 confirms the Biblical timeline and dismisses as fake the current timeline. So it is not that no secular documents exist that would support the longer NB Period. The SK400 and VAT4956 confirm the original dating. But again, since the original NB Period was revised and reduced, none of the surviving business documents supporting a shorter NB Period would directly contradict anything the witnesses or others (like myself) are claiming. It makes a difference if the documents confirm a shorter disputed period or a longer disputed period.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    I used the WT CD to search for all instances of "obverse" and found nothing similar to what you note. Most of those references are noting coins or jewelry written on both sides, with no reference to any observe side being readable vs. the reverse side.

    But in the most general sense, I don't know of any other texts that are written on both sides besides the VAT4956. When you mention "half" the words are missing it reflects in my mind that the VAT4956 does have half the text missing. that is, we have the top half of the text only, months 1 through three on the obverse side and the last months of the year on the reverse side.

    The only astronomical text previously supported by the WTS was the Strm. Kambyses 400 and I'm not sure if this is a text written on both sides or not; I suppose that can be confirmed. But I know there is commentary about how many lacunae are in the text.

    Otherwise, I'd ask if you have ever read CO Jonsson's Gentile Times Reconsidered? If you have, you might be confusing some materials in his work with what you thought was printed in a WTS publication. I think he discusses enough texts that have part of the text missing but a some part of the text is completely readable. Otherwise, I'm coming up blank.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Google doesn't have much on the Hillah Stele either!

    It doesn't help when the same artifact has different museum/publication numbers or titles. It makes it hard to find your way around.

    The Hillah stele (as was said) is also known as Nabon. No. 8. This refers to Stephen Langdon's designation in DIE NEUBABYLONISCHEN KÖNIGSINSCHRIFTEN of 1912 (see p. 271f. - the key chronological bit is in Col. X on p. 285).

    It can also be seen in English in Pritchard's ANET. Click on the scribd link provided in my previous post and go to p. 334 (scribd pagination) under 'Nabonidus' Rise To Power' right at the bottom of the page. The useful chronological info. is on p. 337 (the Adad-Guppi stele starts on the same page btw). Look in the section under '00.'

    It's to do with how long Harran's Ehulhul temple was in ruins - 54 years - before Nabonidus was told by the gods to rebuild it. It is known from both the Babylonian Chronicle and from the Adad-Guppi stele that Harran was desolated in Nabopolassar's 16th year (610/9 BCE). 54 years later takes us to 556/5 BCE which happens to be Nabonidus' accession year. There is no room to expand the time-line by 20 years.

  • BroMac
    BroMac

    thank you AnnOMaly, your last paragraph is most helpfull. for lurkers: Nabopollasar was the first Neo Babylonian King - Nebuchadnezzer's dad - & Nabonidus was the LAST King (co_regency with Belshazzer) when Babylon fell in 539bce.

    ps. I will look at the scibd link when I have a bit more time.

  • BroMac
    BroMac

    Lars I am not in a position to refute what you say, all I can say is that I do not know of any 'experts' of history or archaeology of this period that have published peer reviewed papers that agree with your conclusions. Its clear that you have put alot of thought into your research, perhaps it is time to submit that research to the 'experts' for an open critique/review so changes can be put forward to the accepted chronololgy/history of this period if your research is indeed accurate. I am sure historians would welcome accurate info of this period. after all they are not the WT. Until then......

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    BROMAC: Lars I am not in a position to refute what you say, all I can say is that I do not know of any 'experts' of history or archaeology of this period that have published peer reviewed papers that agree with your conclusions. Its clear that you have put alot of thought into your research, perhaps it is time to submit that research to the 'experts' for an open critique/review so changes can be put forward to the accepted chronololgy/history of this period if your research is indeed accurate. I am sure historians would welcome accurate info of this period. after all they are not the WT. Until then......"

    LARS:

    Well, fortunately I can play the role of the research analyst and then let YOU decide what to think. What you say about "peer reviewed papers that agree with your conclusions" is a complex concept. Let me give you two 'brief" examples if it is possible I can ever be 'brief.'

    1. Hermann Hunger, who translated the VAT4956 and whom I've contacted personally inserted the "moon" in Line 18 where the text was broken off, even though two previous lines had noted the moon had long gone out of Virgo and was in two other constellations by the 15th of Sivan. Others have noted this blatant error and have pointed it out to him. He himself admitted that this was wrong but took the position that it was not his responsibility to correct it in any "peer reviewed journals" but instead the later refinements would correct his work. So even though he admitted to the error and claims "I don't remember why" he made that assessment, he won't correct it formally. So DISHONESTY is an issue why some things don't end up in peer-reviewed journals. Some people don't like correcting their errors.

    2. Finding an assessment in an article that comes to a conclusion that agrees with me might be rare, but not as far as the details. Case in point is Israel Finkelstein. Israel Finkelstein specifically links City IV at Rehov to Megiddo 5b-4a, the so-called Solomonic level. Using C14 dating, this level would have been destroyed c. 871 BCE. He also notes the pottery dating for this level is "early 9th Century BC." Now that is the direct reference from him. He also notes that the Philistine pottery period clearly ends "well into the 10th Century BC" (i.e. 900-850 BCE). So these are statements by Israel Finkelstein based on the archaeology for when these things happened. Now he himself follows the revised timeline which dates David from 1010-970 BCE and Solomon from 970-910 BCE. Thus the archaeology and C14 shows that David and Solomon are dated too eartly to match what would ordinarily be ascribed to them. Finkelstein, then puts on the hat of a historian and presumes, therefore, that David and Solomon are myths. But I don't use that timeline. I use the timeline based on Akhenaten being the pharaoh who ruled right after the 10 plagues. When I do that, the KTU 1.78 would date his 1st year to 1386 BCE and thus Solomon's 4th year in 906 BCE. That means Solomon's rule would be dated from 910-870 BCE and David's rule from 950-910 BCE. This later dating, of course, completely agrees with Finkelstein's assessment of the archaeological evidence! So Finkelstein actually confirms the Biblical timeline. Now he may not write an article that says that, but that's only because he chooses to use another timeline than the Akhenaten-based timeline.

    Same with Jericho. Kathleen Kenyon links Joshua's destruction to 1350-1325 BCE. When we date the Exodus to 1386 BCE, then Jericho would fall in 1346 BCE, 40 years later. So that falls within the timeframe established by Kenyon for the fall of Jericho! So when you claim no "experts" agree with me, it's just not true. Finkelstein and Kenyon both agree with me! Plus so does Hunger regarding the correction of Line 18, but he refuses to publish a correction of his own error in any archaeological journal.

    So while no archaeologist takes the position to compare their archaeological dating to a variety of timelines, their published conclusions can be compared to those timelines and if there is agreement, then the "experts" then are the ones to confirm any relevant matching conclusion.

    So this is very ACADEMIC and ANALYTICAL. Case in point, the VAT4956 where Lines 3 and 14 were already noted to not match 568 BCE, but to be a day off. When you use an astro program, the position of the moon in Lines 3 and 14 on the specified dates are a match to 511 BCE. If we presume these were intentional inclusions and thus 511 BCE should be considered an alternative date for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II, although being the cryptic date, would represent the original chronology, then it is OBSERVED that year 23 would fall in 525 BCE and after 70 years of desolation per Josephus, the 1st of Cyrus would fall in 455 BCE, a date others have assessed is the Bible's dating for the 1st of Cyrus.

    Now it is UP TO YOU to decide whether this is a "confirmation" of the Bible's timeline, or just an incredible coincidence.

    the bottom line is, politics and money influence many things, including propaganda. So just because the FACTS and EVIDENCE directly support one thing, it doesn't mean what appears in peer-reviewed journals don't put their own biased spin on things, which is their option. In the meantime, some evidence supporting some other conclusions are never developed. That is, Kenyon's dating for the fall of Jericho clearly shows us who the pharaohs of the Exodus would be. But I don't see much in the way of linking amenhotep III and Akhenaten with the Exodus, even though that is what the evidence would show.

    So ultimately, the "experts" do agree with me, even Israel Finkelstein. So I'm covered by the "experts."

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit