by Jeffro 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
JEFFRO: According to 2 Samuel 4:2, David becomes king when he was 30 years old...
I think you mean 2 Sam 5:4 don't you? Simple typo or whatever. No biggie!! Or maybe this was a test to see how many people actually bothered to look all this up?
BTW, the 2-year reference does not say Saul's rule was a total of 2 years but only indicates that he had ruled for two years before the events described followed. So there is no conflict with Acts' reference to the 40-year rule.
so I wonder why you rely on the Hebrew text when the Greek is so much older. Is the Greek different to the MT
The Greek text is not older than the oldest Hebrew texts. Also, 1 Samuel 13:1 is not present in the Septuagint.
Larsinger58:
I think you mean 2 Sam 5:4 don't you?
Yes.
Or maybe this was a test to see how many people actually bothered to look all this up?
No. It was just very late at night.
BTW, the 2-year reference does not say Saul's rule was a total of 2 years but only indicates that he had ruled for two years before the events described followed. So there is no conflict with Acts' reference to the 40-year rule.
Attempted semantic apologetics don't solve the problems with the ages of Saul or Samuel. In particular, this claim requires that Saul was rejected as king 8 years before David was even born, much less selected as a replacement.
As far as David is concerned, his 40-year rule would have begun from the time of his anointing and thus would overlap some of the years of Saul.
Incorrect. 2 Samuel 5:4 explicitly indicates David's reign as two periods—7.5 years in Hebron plus an extra 33 years over all of Judah and Israel after that. Your claim requires that he 'informally' ruled for some number of years over all of Judah and Israel while Saul was still king, then ruled from Hebron for seven years, then ruled over the entire jurisdiction for the remainder. Alternatively, you may claim he 'informally' 'ruled' 'from Hebron' for the seven years prior to Saul's death (even though David didn't go to Hebron until after Saul's death), and then ruled over the entire region at the same time and from the same place as Ish-bosheth. In either case, it doesn't work, and neither claim properly deals with the other problems with the ages of Saul or Samuel.
Hi Jeffro: According to 2 Samuel 4:2, David becomes king when he was 30 years old..
Yes, I stand corrected. I hadn't researched this thoroughly enough before speaking.
Its funny how so many jewish kings ruled 40 years. Saul , David, Solomon, Moses , thats obviously utterly stupid.
After further consideration of the posited options, a probable scenario is that Josephus is right about a twenty year reign for Saul (which he may have got from sources that were available to him but are no longer available to us). Due to Samuel's already advanced age when Saul was anointed (which was his entire purpose for wanting to find a suitable replacement), it seems very unlikely that Josephus is right about Samuel dying in Saul's 18th year as king. (I see absolutely no possibility for accepting the claim of 40 years in Acts or in the edited translations of Josephus' works.)
If it is assumed that Saul was rejected as king after two years of reign (rather than the natural reading of 'reigned for two years') and Samuel shortly thereafter anointed David (maybe within a year or two), this allows for David to be secretly anointed as a teenager—perhaps 15 or 16 years old—allowing for David to be 30 at Saul's death. The following events up until Samuel's death would have to fit into a few years (maybe 5ish) after that. In this scenario, Saul would have to have been anointed when he was around forty (or maybe a little younger), allowing for Jonathan to be old enough to have a position in the army when Saul became king. This would still place Jonathan within 10 years of David's age, and the (possibly romantic) relationship slightly less creepy.
Its funny how so many jewish kings ruled 40 years. Saul , David, Solomon, Moses , thats obviously utterly stupid.
Yes. Yes it is. I have my doubts about the veracity of the lengths of the reigns of David and Solomon too (and it is possible that they never existed) but for the purposes of charting what the Bible says on the matter, I'm happy with going along with 40 years for each of them.
It is almost certain that Moses never existed. Most of the writings traditionally attributed to him originate from the Neo-Babylonian period.
I'm still looking at this, but Saul was a young man when he became king, too young to have adult sons.
You said: Attempted semantic apologetics don't solve the problems with the ages of Saul or Samuel.
The KJV renders the focal text in question at 1 Sam. 13:1 as ""Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel, Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel... " So in this case, I need only switch translations.
But, indeed, this chronology remains problematic. If his youngest son, Ishboseth was 40 when Saul died, then Saul may have been 80 years of age at the time after 40 years of rule. But that also meant that he began to rule around age 40. that would explain how he could have a grown son, Jonathan, his eldest, at least age 20 or slightly more 2 years into his reign.
In the meantime, David was just a boy when he began to interact with Saul but was 30 years of age when he became king. If David was around 15 years of age when he killed Goliah, then Saul would have been 65 years of age and Jonathan as much as 45 years of age. Isoboseth would have been 25 years of age.
If Samuel were 60 years of age when Saul was appointed as king, then 25 years later he would have been 85. If Josephus is correct about him living another 18 years then he would have been 103 years of age at the time of his death.
This would mean that Saul was rejected as king after 25 years of rule.
But your focus on the issue of whether Saul ruled for 2 years would not apply to the KJV translation of 1 Sam. 13:1 since it does not assign this 2-year rule to Saul at all, but merely states that after two years is when he then appointed the army, at which time Jonathan was at least 20 as you stated. The fact that Saul was likely 40 years of age when he became king is also confirmed by a 40-year son at the time of his death, meaning his youngest son was born the same year he became king.
Thanks for drawing our attention to this issue.
Just as a general note, we have other instances of very aged persons in the Bible. Daniel maybe was say 10 years of age when he was first deported in the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar II. If so, in year 23 he would have been around 34 years of age. This was followed by a 70-year exile which would have made him 104 when Cyrus began his rule. He was still alive 3 years into the rule of Cyrus and thus would have been 107 years of age.
Plus, there is a reference that some who saw the second temple completed still remembered the first temple. I remember the assembly hall I attended when I was 10 years of age and got baptized. If someone was ten years of age when the temple was destroyed in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II, they would be around 105 years old when the second temple was completed. Moses was 120 when he died, but I think that was exceptional.
mP: Its funny how so many jewish kings ruled 40 years. Saul , David, Solomon, Moses , thats obviously utterly stupid.
Good point, but I think we have to consider manipulation. Case in point the 70 years of exile and the sabbath payback of the land. It is exactly 70 years after the people were deported off the land. But it took some time after the fall of Jerusalem and the conquering of the other cities to completely empty the land. The deportation of the nations out of that region took up to 23 years. That is, Daniel was first deported in the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar and the last deportation was in year 23.
But there was some fine tuning. Some people were left in the land after the fall of Jerusalem and the last major deportation in year 18. Then the main remnant of the Jews ran down to Egypt, leaving at least the land of Judah completely desolate of people after Gedeliah died in year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar II. So that would have ordinarily begun the 70 years of desolation, at least for Judea. But God commanded the Jews to return to Judea, which they didn't. They were thus killed and a small remnant did return to Judea in year 23, being deported that same year. (Jer. 44:14,28) By this time, likly a small remnant of other peoples were all that were left that needed to be deported from the Northern Kingdom area as well.
Thus I would think it is possible that the precise times of the death of these kings being precisely 40 has some significance. In the meantime, it would not have been difficult for Jehovah to extend the lives of certain kings so that their rules ended after 40 years. The period of Saul, David and Solomon is a period of 120 years, the same as a generation of Noah's day. So maybe there is a hidden message for this period for these kings. I favor divine manipulation vs. simply coincidence, though.
