Evidently, AAWA may have changed their name on the outside, but actions speak louder than words...
the attitude is still 'anti'
Oz
goodbye AAWA--good luck
by bigmac 203 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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*lost*
Disgusted by this picture and the AAWA carry on. It just seems to be sinking further into the depths. They are not ' Anti ' no more now, they are ' Advocates '.
In light of this, very embarrassing, recent revelation, I for one am so happy I have nothing to do with supporting this (AAWA) in any way shape or form.
Steve - lol ,
aaaaaaargh - biting the tongue, want to say something so bad like, my conscience is doing battle.
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jws
zound wrote:
I don't think trying to discuss with the Watchtower how they can change their policies is in the least bit realistic. Which makes me think either the organisers are completely deluded, or they are trying to make the point - "Look, Look! See! The watchtower are not co-operating with us! We're offering a hand of friendship and only have good intentions but they refuse to talk to us! (could be something to do with... oh I don't know... encouraging everyone to give the finger to kingdom halls maybe?) We're victims! We're victims!"
The watchtower don't negotiate with apostates - end of story. Having that in your charter just makes you look stupid.
IMO, you are correct. It's like trying to form a group to convince Catholics that the transmutation or any of it's other religious beliefs are wrong. Or telling the JWs they have to change their views on who the whore of Babylon is. Since when have the JWs bowed to public pressure over their beliefs ans policies? Now legal pressures, that's a different story. Free literature when they faced taxes, changing policies regarding reporting of pedophiles when they started getting sued.
Even if we don't feel it's enough change, they're going to do what they can to survive, not give in to pressure. And quite frankly, some of the proposed changes aren't going to help them. Imagine people can associate with DFed apostate loved ones. Before long, they run a high risk of being apostate themselves. They aren't going to go for that. It will hurt them.
Blood, they could ease up on that, but at the risk of also losing many. How many loved ones have been lost over the years? You can't just give up on it altogether or you risk losing a lot more.
But delusion is the MO for their prez. For example, he puts up a survey and thinks he's getting real JWs to answer his questions. Not just those here or JWs who are questioning already and searching the internet. He's delusional if he thinks he's getting a real picture of your average still-in JW. Perhaps that's why he feels he can make a difference with this.
A good organization, IMO, could help not by challenging them to change their doctrine, but by helping fight legal battles. Help fund pedophile cases. Help fund cases helping children get blood transfusions when their parents are refusing. And of course provide support for ex-JWs. But I can't think of a better way to do that than talking to a community of ex-JWs like you have right here on this board.
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Marvin Shilmer
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“But delusion is the MO for their prez. For example, he puts up a survey and thinks he's getting real JWs to answer his questions. Not just those here or JWs who are questioning already and searching the internet. He's delusional if he thinks he's getting a real picture of your average still-in JW. Perhaps that's why he feels he can make a difference with this.”
jws,
There is much value to be found in surveys even if there is a serious flaw related to participation bias. Information that may at face-value appear flawed is very useful so long as it’s consistently collected at intervals. In the end this is where usefulness of Cedar’s survey is to be found.
There is also another factor worthy of its own examination. Watchtower conducts surveys all the time, mostly through its traveling representatives known as “circuit overseers”. It never makes results of these surveys public.
Moreover, Watchtower never solicits survey responses from Jehovah’s Witnesses about its policies and/or teachings. What this means is other than Cedars’ survey there is nothing out there for purposes of benchmarking. At least Cedars’ survey provides something in the way of data that can be measured, and this is its value.
What makes all this more helpful is an April 25, 2001 letter from Watchtower explaining that it does not want individual Jehovah’s Witnesses to respond to surveys out of fear of “publishers expressing personal viewpoints that may not be in line with” current Watchtower dogma.
You can read text of this letter here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6063/1/Society-on-Documenting-Personal-Views
Cedars’ survey is not delusional. It’s practical and it helps.
Marvin Shilmer
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Simon
Marvin: what you describe exactly reinforces the point that jws was making.
Any survey on an apostate site is going to be seriously self-selecting and will never be representative of JWs so should not be portrayed as such. Even taking out 'apostate', if it was the BBC, there would still be a very small minority of JWS who would answer, a subset of 'people' who a) go on the internet and visit that site in the first place and b) would want to answer.
If I sit outside a Chrysler factory and ask people what the best car is what are they going to say? Any claims I subsequently make based on that about what factory-workers think the best car is will be seriously skewed.
Conducting meaningful surveys is incredibly difficult and a science. That's why most trashy mags and news channels only really have them as a form of entertainment and to reinforce the beliefs that the readership / viewers already have.
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Kallam
I've run into Cedars in the past and none of this surprises me at all. Creating secret guerilla style groups to oppose the Watchtower is useless for a variety of reasons.
Much in the same way Witnesses eventually are stunned when they discover that not only does the "world" not fear them, but typically pays no attention to them at all; in much the same way the Watchtower takes little to no notice of us. It may make you feel good to think that the Watchtower is cowering in some secret War Room and coming up with strategies on how to oppose Cedars Facebook team, but it's simply not happening.
Secondly, the average JW has been conditioned to fear apostates for most of their lives, what makes you think that developing some Apostate Super Friends is going to be any different? This is exactly what they have been warned against for their entire lives.. an organized Apostate "organization" trying to destroy their faith. In my opinion (and experience) the best way for people to leave is by doing their own research online and coming to terms with the truth on their own before they are ready to participate.
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Tylinbrando
It may make you feel good to think that the Watchtower is cowering in some secret War Room and coming up with strategies on how to oppose Cedars Facebook team (any dissenting internet arena), but it's simply not happening.
Guess again.
they have been warned against for their entire lives.. an organized Apostate "organization" trying to destroy their faith.
This is strong evidence
Thanks for your first post. Welcome.
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Simon
Yes, when you were in you were probably convinced that the world was watching the WTS, everything that the satan-controlled world did was really part of a plot and manouvering to try and take down the WTS. If they got a mention in a sitcom people would mention it at the meeting the next day "see, see, they mentioned us !!"
The reality is, typically it was just as a punchline.
The same mentality also works for apostates and the WTS and is why the world does not give a shit about exJWs - because they don't really give a shit about JWs.
"hey, you know that minor religion that no one really cares or knows much about other than they knock on your door every now and then? Yeah, well there is an even smaller group of people who left them ..."
It's a non-story to most news organisations precisely because the number of people who care or are affected is tiny.
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james_woods
Cedars’ survey is not delusional. It’s practical and it helps.
Marvin Shilmer
However delusional or non-delusional, it is worthless as a scientifically sound survey because it is self-defeating in the collection of a true random sample. Because JWs are not supposed to respond to such non-JW activities, it automatically is heavily biased (in fact, practically fully sampled) by non-conforming JWs.
Thus, it can only tell us that non-conforming JWs do not conform to JW rules. Which should have been obvious.
BTW - Does that pathetic "flipping the bird" picture remind anyone else of the Rick Fearon posters standing in front of Kingdom Halls with a banner? Yes, it is in a way more offensive than the Fearon pictures - but the similarity to me is in the pathetic pointlessness of the effort.
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Kallam
THanks for the warm welcome Tylin. Id' like to respond to your rebuttals but as they are mostly nonsense I will pass.
Simon: Absolutely correct and it took me some time to figure this out after I had left. "But why oh why doesn't the world media care that my aunt isn't talking to me anymore???"