I agree that the progressive idealism of the West is from Plato and the Greek philosophers.
Are Western values compatible with Christian values?
by garyneal 29 Replies latest jw friends
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jgnat
In this text of "The Republic" by Plato, the translator (1817-1893) had no qualms in marrying Platonic ideals to Christianity.
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Band on the Run
Well, I must disagree with Tal. Christian values are Western values, and the reverse may not be true. The key is how one defines Christianity. If you ask if Jesus was Western, he was NOT. He was very Jewish and viewed as a threat or he would not have been crucified. If you are asking aout how Christianity evolved over time, there is no doubt Christian values are Western values.
I have not read much about it but I know that the Eastern, Middle Eastern, North African, and Indian (the subcontinent) brands of Christianity differ from Western thought in several key ways. We never think of these Christianities when we discuss Christianity. There are whole realms of Christianity that developed separately from Rome. Few early Church fathers were Roman. Most of the bright lights that defined Christianity are Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, and North African.
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mP
@band:
Which values in the west are from the Bible ? Slavery, inequality for women and they are the undisputable ones ? What good is there in the BIble ? The Bible hasnothing to teach.
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Band on the Run
The Bible is such a collection of writings, complied over long periods of time that it contains objective good and bad stories. Paul wrote movingly of God in the love portion of Corinthians. He never meant it to be a sickening wedding verse. He also writes of the folly of the cross. The Psalms are achingly beautiful, when they are not war songs of destruction, rape, and pillage. Job addresses the human condition of intense suffering. Humans are more moral than God in Job. His comforters are false. When God appears in the whirlwind, he never answers Job's questions.
Mary and Martha show that women are important. We are a team of housekeeping and intellect. Mary Magdaelene shows an independent woman who funds Jesus' ministry from her own money -- not that of any husband. She was wealthy and personally devoted. It is very interesting that Donatella never read the text carefully. Magdalene's turn at prostitution is a mirror of society.
John 1 is soaring. I love the principalities portion of Paul. The characters in the Bible have faults. The WT would never let them in to an article. So many times when I was reading long portions of the Bible each day I laughed so hard at some Bible story or character. No one could invent some of these people. The Beatitudes are amazing.
There is much good and much bad. It makes sense that these writings would be sacred. Our Western mashed version of the NT changed history. Elaine Pagels, the religious scholar, told us that nuns (this is so strange) may have been the first women not forced to marry or prostitute themselves. Monasteries and convents were centers of learning and the arts. The art is pretty dreadful until the Renaissance.
I saw the Sistine Chapel in person. A work that can inspire such art can't be all bad.
The Bible is not all murder and mayhem.
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mP
@band
You have concentrated on the examples of the characters in the Bible. I was trying to highlight what the Bible says and does not say about the stories that it gives. The racism, slavery, inequality are all ancient culture that thnkfully are dying. Its not a wonder with ideas like that the jews amnd their neighbours were always killing and raping each other. Somebody steals a chicken and families continue to fight and die over it for thousands of years.
The fact that men like David are portrayed as heroes and given the honour of being the principal ancestor of Jesus is a disgrace. David wasa monster just like Hitler. None of us if we lived in his kingdom would praise or be happy with him. At no stage does he do a kkind thing, and yet somehow he is blessed by God. The sad thing is even after much evil, he is never condemned for it because in the eyes of the author it was fine.
No where does the Bible say Mary Mag was a prostitute. I have no idea why you mention this. I think the fact that they take money from her shows her in a position of weakness because she remains a nobody in the heirarchy.
Just because some people in the JOb story are better than God does not make them good people. The entire story seems to equate Jobs household with material goods. His wives, daughters and slaves dont even get a mention but other things like cows etc do. Pretty sad that those women dont even count.
The sistine chapel is simply an example of the Pope boasting the power and majesty of his office. It is a folly to then say the Pope is good because he is a patron of art. The two are completely disconnected.
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mP
@band
Monasteries and convents were centers of learning and the arts.
@mP
They were examples of selfishness. The church wants to control all knowledge. They kept the lay person illiterate and also held the Bible for thier own secret for their own selfih advantage. Their motivation was power and selfihsness, never noble or sharing. History shows us if we examine their persectuions of free thinkers like Galileo and others that this is true.
The reason England became the dominant power was because Henry VIII freed his island from the influence and power of the church. Countries that were more catholic like Spain and Italy which should have been rivals of England, never achieved their potential because of the social environment imposed by te Church. Once the church was killed in France in the revolution they went on to achieve much greatness as well. Russia with all its potential and resources remained a backwater becase the social structure was ruined by the greed of the aristocracy which enslaved the masses. There was no freedom to invent and improve. England however without the church eventually gave us democracy, an education prototype, the industrial revolution. Its not a coninincidence that today the more religions a country the poorer it also is.
Just look at those fanatics in the middle east, what good has following the Koran a book not that different from the Bible done for them.
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Band on the Run
Sorry but I disagree with you. Also, much of the ugly stuff in the Bible is ever present in today's world. It may be gone from America and Western Europe but we are not the entire world. Slavery is rampant. Murder, rape, and mayhem is ongoing in many countries. Islam is not standing up to thugs who would strip Moslem women of their rights. Much of the world remains feudal.
The United States news media frequently reports of human rights abuse and sexual trafficking here on U.S. soil. I suggest you visit some housing in low income neighborhoods. See the mentally ill homeless suffering in Manhattan against the ultra wealthy.
The patriarchal system exemplified by the Old Testament remains in place in many areas. Freedom of religion is seriously in trouble in America now. The conservative justices are stripping the Establisment Clause of its force in case after case.
Rick Santorum talked of the evils of a college education. If I recall correctly, Paul did not find his education a waste.
Child brides exist in the United States. Reproductive rights are challenged.
No, I try to study law, history, and culture with a passion. There is no rule limiting the good things in the Bible to a fedual society. We can pick and choose.
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mP
@band
But the scale in our western societies is considerably less. We have much less violence. Just look at the Bible, practically every other page has some terrible violence. We as individuals never see or experience anyting remotely that terrible in our immediate lives. I am ignoring tv and the net because they are not local and personal as the stories in the bible are prsented.
BAND
. I suggest you visit some housing in low income neighborhoods
mP:
You forget in the old days it was much worse. We have warmth, shelter, good food something that was lacking to the majority of peopl ein the past. They had no shows walked in the mud when it was cold and so on. Lets be fair and comncentrate on the typical rather than judging an entire society of the evils done by a few. As a whole our soecities are much better in everything and thats because the bible and religion is fading. Western progress is directly related to the decline in religion. Just look at the middle east and the terrible state of the countries that are of course fanatical.
Jews in the bible would be outraged if they saw women with their freedoms in your homeland or mine. People dont like to admit it but there is little difference between places like Saudi Arabia or the Taliban controlled areas and the Bible.
BAND
Child brides exist in the United States. Reproductive rights are challenged.
MP:
I am sorry they exist, but they are a small minority. In the bible they were a large minority quite different scales of evil. In terms of judging society at least we reconigse they are illegal and immoral something the bible doesnt even bother to mention. -
*lost*
band on the run