I was hoping you would show up, Qcmbr. We've got a live one here. Dawkins would just love a chance to chat with him!
Enemies Of Reason -Richard Dawkins
by frankiespeakin 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
I hope Cold Steel has the honesty to address your well-informed challenge Qcmbr.
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cantleave
Qcmbr, glad you stepped into the fray, we need informed reasoning.
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return of parakeet
Parakeet: I never knew the verb "to hide" could twisted into so many meanings.
Cold Steel: Yes, it's called English. You really should have paid attention in class.
I have a master's degree in English from a real school (i.e., not BYU). I eat sentence diagrams for breakfast and spit out participles for lunch. I forgot more about the English language than you will ever know about it. Twit.
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Cold Steel
Nothing 'revealed' in Mormonism has been correct in a factual way...with the odd fortunate exception (e.g. no smoking), it has proven ridiculous, dangerous and a distraction from reality.
And how would you possibly know this? If this statement is true, I will immediately admit my mistake and leave the church. Fortunately, you are merely repeating things you’ve read elsewhere without bothering to research any facet of the church. And in what way is it dangerous? I’ve seen nothing that has been hurled at Mormonism that hasn’t already been hurled at ancient Christianity.
Its cosmology is wrong (there is no great star surrounded by lesser orbiting stars, stars do not get light from higher order of stars, nobody lives on the moon in Quaker style dress, planets do not convert into a crystalline non-entropic state etc.)....
No one in the church has ever stated that people live on the moon in Quaker style dress. This fanciful story has its basis in the journal of one early latter-day saint, a man by the name of Oliver B. Huntington, and was nowhere backed up, reported, related, hinted at or taught. If it was a teaching, why is it not mentioned by Wilford Woodruff, our chief historian and a comprehensive journal keeper? As for stars, how could you possibly know everything you claim? Have you been to the center of our galaxy, or any other, for that matter? If not, how did you manage to see past the dust, or peer into other dimensions? Astronomers have found some amazing things, such as stars in the Milky Way’s center that are 200 million times the mass of our sun! We didn’t know that when Joseph Smith was alive. Yet Joseph spoke in grand terms and constantly spoke of the universe, and perhaps others, as much larger than anyone ever expected. Bottom line, you don’t know enough to condemn our cosmology. And do you think that ours is any worse than the Bible’s?
...its history is corrupted (current textbooks decontextualise the history and re-represent it in a whitewashed fashion, small example: I never knew Joseph Smith used a stone in a hat to 'translate' the Book of Mormon; instead I was taught, and our artwork at the time showed, Joseph using the Urim and Thummim as a translation tool directly on the gold plates)....
Joseph Smith did indeed use a stone for translating the Book of Mormon and eventually he didn’t even need that. He also began his translation using the Urim and Thummim, which is just another sort of stone inset into a breastplate. And yes, he put it into a hat where he could more clearly discern what he was seeing. Strange? Perhaps to modern minds, but the Lord has always used devices to bring about His will. Have you ever read H.G. Wells’ “The Crystal Egg”? It’s a short story about a man who buys a beautiful crystal egg in a curio shop. He discovered later that he could detect images in it and he put a dark cloth over his head and the egg so he could more clearly see. According to Hebrew tradition, Joshua used twelve stones, each representing a tribe of Israel. When one tribe would transgress, the correlating stone would glow and a number would show the number of transgressors or transgressions. Also according the ancient tradition, Noah used shining stones to see aboard the ark. Later, when the Brother of Jared was asked by the Lord what He, the Lord, should do to grant the Jaredites light, the prophet produce clear stones he already had prepared. If he knew that Noah had used such stones, doesn’t it make sense that he would use the same solution for the barges his people were building? (See Nibley’s article, Strange Ships and Shining Stones.)
...it's archaeology is absolutely zero — even tiny civilisations leave traces (we find small bronze age houses on remote islands in the British Isles ) — but the million man battles and huge, concrete and city building people's of the BoM have left not one single shred of evidence, its ancient linguistic ability is laughable (Book of Abraham facsimile used has been shown to be a standard finery text not , as mendaciously described by JS, a record written by the hand of Abraham, also the Egyptian alphabet he and the brethren concocted is utter gibberish), its social laws are as racist, sexist, homophobic and explotational as any ever written by any culture (black men and the priesthood/marriage, polygamy, polygany, gay reclamation electro shock therapy, proposition 8, a woman's place is 'in the home' and so on), its geology is absurd (6000 year old Earth), its rejection of evolution and embrace of creationism unfortunate and demonstrably false and its contributions to physics, maths, astronomy, biology, geology, ancient history, genetics , medicine and all other scientific fields ranges from zero to galloping bollock twaddle.
Balderdash! If you’re going to criticize the LDS church, don’t just ejaculate your antiquated notions in so doing while pretending it’s something you’ve done on your own. If the Book of Mormon were false, shouldn’t the evidences against it be going up every year instead of dropping like a rock? I’ve actually stood in cement houses in Mesoamerica and seen the ruins of the ancient Mayans. Go to YouTube and do your own research on Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon and the new evidences for the Book of Abraham. I can’t educate you in a forum such as this as these are things I read about all the time. You’re just throwing dirt and hoping it’ll stick. You have no real idea of what you’re talking about. Why, too, have researchers been able to follow Lehi’s route in the Old World and found not a single contradiction?? We even have a good idea where Nephi built his ship. Also, Nahom, the place where they buried Ishmael, has been discovered just where Nephi reported it was and in 1994 archeologists began discovering mummified bodies, indicating it was, as the Book of Mormon suggested, a burial site. How did Joseph Smith know that? All of your archeological questions can be found answered in two LDS DVDs entitled Journey of Faith (1 and 2). These are beautifully done, professional productions and, in my view, extremely compelling. The Nephi Project also has a quick and dirty DVD that is astoundingly compelling.
Journey of Faith, Part 1
Journey of Faith, Part 2
Nahom in The Book of Mormon
Evidences of the Book of Mormon
Gold Plates
Good Starting Place
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cofty
Fortunately, you are merely repeating things you’ve read elsewhere without bothering to research any facet of the church.
Cold Steel - Ask Qcmbr what religion he was up until relatively recently - go on ask him - go on!
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Cold Steel
Cold Steel - Ask Qcmbr what religion he was up until relatively recently - go on, ask him - go on!
Well, brother Cofty, it don't really matter much what he was and what he is. I can generally tell what they've been a readin' by the way they couch their questions! Unfortunately, I've seen some people leave the LDS church for some mighty strange reasons. If he lived in the U.S. and I could talk things out with him, I'd guess I'd find out if he was deceiving himself or whether he just wanted out for other reasons. Honesty and integrity in one's objections goes a long way with me, and when people start tossing out cow pies instead of well thought-out objections, I pretty much know where they're gettin' it -- and it ain't from their own intellects.
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talesin
what about people who are born in believers ?
"lost" I would say that one may be born into a family that believes - then one is taught from an early age that XX religion is the 'true' one. A child that is taught no belief, has none .. that child is free to wonder, to use even more imagination ... as a 'born-in', I had no belief .. once I reached an age of reason, I was able to leave their teachings behind --- the child within kept its innate wisdom.
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tal
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - let's discuss on another thread if you'd like so we don't get too far off the original topic (please , I'd like to do that!) but here is something that sums up core LDS challenges (by a member like me) http://www.roadkilldelight.com/NOM/JR.htm which I'll post rather than quote.
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Qcmbr
I want to prod ColdSteel a bit to respond (hopefully).
The truth is that if God emblazoned incontrovertible evidence across the heavens, many would still reject Him.
This is interesting, it's also not what Mormonism teaches:
Mosiah 27:31 Yea, a every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be b judged of him, then shall they confess that he is c God ; then shall they confess, who live d without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his e all-searching eye.
The actual reason taught in LDS dogma is that Faith is the first principle of the Gospel:
4th Article Faith - We believe that the first principles and a ordinances of the Gospel are: first, b Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, c Repentance ; third, d Baptism by e immersion for the f remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of g hands for the h gift of the Holy Ghost.
And that the reason why faith is required is:
Ether 12:6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that a faith is things which are b hoped for and c not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no d witness until after the e trial of your faith.
Therefore this earthly life is a trial, to see who and what we are without accurate knowledge, in short we are required, according to LDS dogma, to live by faith without knowledge as a test and trial which, if we pass then gives accurate knowledge.
Alma 42:10 Therefore, as they had become a carnal , sensual, and devilish, by b nature , this c probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
So returning to the quote above , it's nothing to do with those who would reject God (I suspect that there would be almost 100% acceptance of the existence of a god who gave 'incontrovertable evidence' much as there is 100% acceptance of the existence of the sun ) but more to do with invalidating this earthly test (i.e. God wandering onto the stage during the exam gives all the pupils the cheat sheet answers.)
Therefore, LDS acceptance of faith as the first principle of the gospel is in direct and violent contradiction with the scientific method. LDS faith makes the lack of information the test condition and the human , subjective response the outcome. Science is unconcerned with such self-important and utterly delusional fluff and simply seeks to explain all observed phenomenon. The LDS god would be ruining the test if he ever gave any real answers that were useful for mankind.