by Terry 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
dear Terry...
you said: "In no way was the first man presented as the end of a long rational process of learning, weighing, deciding over many years time in testing situations to hone skills for making a LIFE OR DEATH FIRST DECISION!"...
exactly!...so why are you forcing it into the text with a statement like this: "In the Garden of Eden the newly created homo sapien must struggle with the TENSION between the CHOICE to pursue KNOWLEDGE rather than TO SURVIVE!"...???
love michelle
myelaine chides:
dear Terry...
you said: "In no way was the first man presented as the end of a long rational process of learning, weighing, deciding over many years time in testing situations to hone skills for making a LIFE OR DEATH FIRST DECISION!"...
exactly!...so why are you forcing it into the text with a statement like this: "In the Garden of Eden the newly created homo sapien must struggle with the TENSION between the CHOICE to pursue KNOWLEDGE rather than TO SURVIVE!"...???
I must be an incredibly poor writer that I cannot convey a simple thought like the following:
I'm saying Adam was not equipped for what God demanded of him: obedience RATHER THAN pursuit of knowledge.
It is like building a railroad track and demanding that the locomotive go sideways!
I'm demonstraing that human nature is contrary (even in Adam) to simply OBEYING.
Homo sapien MUST pursue and use knowledge. It is how he is constructed.
Try telling the tall man, "Hey buddy if you aren't a whole lot shorter, you're going to die!"
dear Terry...
my point is, without knowledge of the "big world" you wouldn't be threatened you would be warned...as adam was.
my point is not moot...the biblical text doesn't say that it was God who "tested"...it was satan who deceived...
love michelle
dear Terry...
I'm not "chiding" at all...I'm stating my opinion.
please don't be one of "those guys"
does the text say anything about adam's pursuit of knowledge besides the "tree encounter"?...no...you are imposing that on the text.
in actuality the pursuit of knowledge is seen as a NEGATIVE in this scenario.
love michelle
myelaine proffers:
dear Terry...
my point is, without knowledge of the "big world" you wouldn't be threatened you would be warned...as adam was.
my point is not moot...the biblical text doesn't say that it was God who "tested"...it was satan who deceived...
1.IDENTIFY THE THREAT TO ADAM
2.ASK WHAT PROCESS ADAM WOULD USE TO MINIMIZE THE THREAT
3.EXAMINE WHAT ACTION WAS TAKEN AND WHY
answers:
1.Adam was threatened with DEATH (you shall surely die). Who threatened him? Jehovah. Where would death come from-the fruit itself? No. Jehovah will pull the plug on Adam's respirator as a willful act of murder.
2.Adam, being homo sapien, can only rely on KNOWLEDGE to make a decision. The tree is called the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Human nature impels Adam's decision to survive toward KNOWLEDGE and not passive obedience.
3.Adam sought knowledge. Jehovah pulled the plug.
I'm glad you mentioned SATAN!
Satan: (who IS NOT named in the Genesis account just as the word "Test" is not used.)
Adam is presented with a CONFLICT of information.
How does a homo sapien solve a conflict which involves "death"?
Human Nature is to pursue further KNOWLEDGE.
Which is exactly why Adam was impelled to the source of KNOWLEDGE: the tree.
dear Terry...
you said: "I'm glad you mentioned SATAN! Satan: (who IS NOT named in the Genesis account just as the word "Test" is not used.) Adam is presented with a CONFLICT of information. How does a homo sapien solve a conflict which involves "death"? Human Nature is to pursue further KNOWLEDGE. Which is exactly why Adam was impelled to the source of KNOWLEDGE: the tree."...
taking the whole revelation of God in context asserts that the serpent in the garden was satan. taking the whole revelation of God in context asserts that God does not test/tempt with evil.
satan used misdirection didn't he?...HE "made" the conflict about knowledge. *cough*
love michelle
myelaine (intent on exhausting me) says:
taking the whole revelation of God in context asserts that the serpent in the garden was satan. taking the whole revelation of God in context asserts that God does not tempt with evil.
satan used misdirection didn't he?...he "made" the conflict about knowledge. *cough*
Terry replies:
The WHOLE revelation of God? How do you know that?
Jehovah tempted Jesus by allowing Satan to offer him goodies. Was Satan evil or not? Satan said that Jehovah had delivered all the nations in his hands and that make Jehovah a co-conspirator before the fact.
Satan didn't create the conflict about knowledge. The conflict was about whether God had lied to Adam.
What had God lied to Adam about? "In the day you eat of it you will surely die."
Adam didn't die that day. Now who's the liar?
Sorry about your cough.
dear Terry...
you said: "Jehovahtempted Jesus by allowing Satan to offer him goodies"...where is this written?
you said: "Satan said that Jehovah had delivered all the nations in his hands "...where is this written?
you said: "Satan didn't create the conflict about knowledge."...that isn't what I said. I said, satan "made" the conflict about knowledge (where the original prohabition from God was about death.)
What had God lied to Adam about? "In the day you eat of it you will surely die. Adam didn't die that day"...now who's being literal when it suits?
love michelle
myelaine:you said: "Jehovah tempted Jesus by allowing Satan to offer him goodies"... where is this written?
Terry : Matthew 1:1 –“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.”
myelaine:you said : "Satan said that Jehovah had delivered all the nations in his hands "... where is this written?
Terry: Matthew 1:8- Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 -And saith unto Jesus, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”
Had Jehovah NOT delivered to Satan the Kingdoms and the glory the premise of the temptation would have been null.
myelaine:you said : "Satan didn't create the conflict about knowledge."... that isn't what I said. I said, satan "made" the conflict about knowledge (where the original prohabition from God was about death.)
Terry: A distinction without a difference, I'm afraid.
myelain: What had God lied to Adam about? "In the day you eat of it you will surely die. Adam didn't die that day"...now who's being literal when it suits?
Terry: Death is death. Otherwise where is the substance of the "warning"?
What do you say death is? Does "surely" mean "not likely"?
On that day is on THAT day. Didn't happen. Therefore, sky daddy lied.
I don't understand your objections, to be frank. What are you on about?
Terry, thank you for your illustration of the 'squared circle'. I had heard somewhere that most Jews understand the Bible to be made up of, let's call them fables, created for educational purposes. Is it any wonder that so many Jewish people are highly educated AND agnostic/atheist? (at least, that has always been my observation)
