scotoma
edenone
Did Yahweh command child sacrifice at one time?
by srd 17 Replies latest jw friends
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mP
It would seem from the Abraham story that he knew all the procedures. It also seems that Isaac was conditioned and understood that sacrifices of children did happen when necessary. Jephthah was also a high priest and it seems strange he would make such a promise to Jehovah, unless it was the norm.
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Band on the Run
EdenOne,
What is the source of your belief that Isasc was twenty0five? I am curious b/c I never come across that figure. What if Isaac were twenty-five?
How could Abraham have overpowered him at age 25? It is against all morals for God to require murder. A sane God requires no test of faith. If God is God, God should know without tests. This is bs of the highest calibre.
What about Isaac post-binding and with knife ready to strike him? A PTSD! --until he dies. If I recall correctly, he wasn't nurturing to his own children.
These Bible heroes, esp. the Old Testament ones, are no heroes. They are repulsive and seriously flawed humans. Indeed, most are mentally ill according to our modern standards. The Isaac story makes much more sense if it is a remnant of an earlier time.
What other factors can you present that make this disgusting story palatable? Was it a plastic knife as at McDona'd's today?
If Isaac were ninety, the story remains unsettling at a deep level. This is no story of God teaching no child sacrifice. Rather, it is a story of testing faith. A sane response would be to find another god. YHWH has no morals. This is a sandbox God, full of childish behavior.
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snare&racket
Sacrifice definition....
" Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim."
" a surrender of something of value as a means of gaining something more desirable or of preventing some evil"
Sacrifice is not restricted to putting someone on an altar, any time god believes he can take life years away, he does so as he believes his will, his authority, his appeasement is greater than the value of the child's life. Whats the difference? Burning children in a fire to god.... Killing children for god? Both result in dead children due to gods will, for his will is more valuable than the child's life..... Evil.
" Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) "
"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
" From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces." (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God." Deut 13: 13-19
Snare x
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Abraham can't be used in the context of "child sacrifice". Isaac was about 25 years old when that trial took place. He was no defenseless child
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Pure semantics, EO. A son is always a son regardless of the age. As I've heard many parents say, even when their children are grown adults, they are always viewed by the parent as a beloved child. The worry and concern a parent has for their offspring does not change even when those same children become adults. If I am wrong on this, any parent reading this is welcome to correct me.
As BOTR said:
If Isaac were ninety, the story remains unsettling at a deep level. This is no story of God teaching no child sacrifice. Rather, it is a story of testing faith. A sane response would be to find another god. YHWH has no morals. This is a sandbox God, full of childish behavior.
We can argue Isaac's age all day long, but it doesn't change the simple fact that God ordered his "friend" Abraham to plunge a knife into his son's body and kill him. Are you taking the position that this should be offensive only if Isaac were 5 years old, but we should see some great moral lesson in it and applaud the account since he was, by your claim, 25 years old?
I think your moral compass needs readjusting.
These "moral lessons" presented by the Bible's 'heroes' are offensive to a person possessing normal human thinking and balanced emotions. They are appealing only to those who find some kind of solice in serving a god that is more morally bankrupt than the humans He condemns.
And, it also nullifies god's claim that the idea of killing a child (regardless of age) never "came up into his heart". The story of Abraham and Isaac exposes that claim as patently false.
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ThisFellowCheap
On the brighter side, guessed Jephthat daugther didn't died a virgin. Maybe some men did go with them in roaming those "hills and valleys" (hmmm, I love porn, sorry err puns), and my, what a time she must have had- give me good sex with reckless abandon for two whole uninterrupted months, then make a martyr of me, I'd be very much obliged!
And Isaac's story could never be complete without the tranquilizers, ropes and bondage materials (yeah, he was drugged and overpowered by Abraham and his servants), then he was also an imbecile (couldn't get himself a wife, couldn't recognise his own kids, couldn't distinguish hog meat from mutton!), so he wasn't worth much anyway.
And don't mind God when he said it "never came up in his mind", when you too have being living for eternity, you'd see whether you wouldn't suffer from some descent amnesia (remember, then "all the former things would not be called to mind"). Well, okay, I agree, his is selective amnesia but amnesia all the same.
Did you say God sacrificed Jesus? C'mon he wasn't even technically dead, imagine just 3 days out of infinity! Let's just say he passed out for a moment and was resuscitated. And lest you forget, the Romans and Jewish leaders did it and not God, he only "allowed" it to happened!
A couple lines in a poem I wrote on the several atrocities perform by "God" reads:
But God was not found guilty
For God was not found...at all
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BU2B
Its funny how the WT surmises that Jepthahs daughter was given to temple service the rest of her life.. Hardly seems a reason to mourn for two months..
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Bella15
There was a person in the bible who offered the first person to come out of his house as a burnt offering to God, I don't know if it was to YAWEH... well, he did fulfilled his promised. I don't konw if burnt meant sacrifice by fire ... the gril was a virgin. I need to research that, also God did not ask for it, it was the person who offered it and back hten you needed to fulfill your vows to YHWH.
But you know thats one aspect I like about the bible, tell you the good, the bad and the ugly ... it does not try to hide it, it is transparent! A lot of people would have fight to make God appear all loving in the bible I think, but NOPE, the good, the bad, and the ugly is all out there for our reading ... LOL ... The question is WHY?