Bloody good argument, if bled properly

by SixofNine 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I have seen references to the Bible verses which describe Saul's army, after a long drawn out battle, eating unbled meat. Often, I see this described as an action they took to keep from starving.

    In my view, to infer this was done to keep from starving is just silly, and weakens the argument because it is so ridiculous. I suppose people choose to present it as a life or death matter to make it more analagous to the life or death matter of blood transfusion?

    Cheap propoganda, and so unnecessary, IMO. It is a great scripture to use against the JW blood doctrine w/o any embellishment. Saul's men were tired and hungry, they didn't want to wait a short while to drain the blood. As the Bible puts it, they were "greedily" eating. If anything this makes the argument MORE powerful (slightly less analagous, but more powerful) as there was no sanction against them, even though it was a rather petty excuse for their wrongdoing, a wrongdoing that JW's contend should carry the death penalty.

    JW's say that merely using blood as medicine should carry the ultimate penalty, when God didn't even slap the wrist of men who directly violated his law on eating blood. And they did it for no other reasons than hunger and lack of self control.

    What do you think?

  • Francois
    Francois

    Sounds like they were in such a hurry they were eating the meat RAW. If they didn't have the patience to bleed it, surely they didn't have the patience to COOK it.

    Raw, bloody meat. Yum.

    Francois

  • Simon
    Simon

    Wasln't their 'punishment' also very mild? They had to wash or something and were unclean until sundown.

    Well woopee do ... I'm sure that was devastating to them ... NOT!

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Nope, actually there was no sanction. Saul had them get a big stone, and each one bring a bull and a sheep and slaughter it, presumably on this stone, and then eat it. Again presumably, they bled and cooked them this time. BTW, they called the stone an "alter to Jehovah" .

    So no, there was no punishment, just a big cook-out.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    1 Samuel 14.31 - 35.

    WT. 15.04.94 page 31

    The crux of the WT argument seems to be that they made some attempt to drain it but slaughtered them "On the ground", not on a stone and did not hang the carcasses to drain properly

    Interestingly WT says
    ""God did not demand taking fanatical measures to drain the blood"

    Thats what they say ,what do you think?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I think the GB would prefer to see children die rather than admit they are stupid and so far removed from any special communique with god that they may as well be atheist.

    I think that 1Sam. 14:33 says '"Look! The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating along with the blood." At this he said: "you have dealt treacherously."'

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Another one that never set well with me was eating bone marrow. Since red blood cells are produced from the marrow, why would it be okay to eat the means of production of the blood? Or, it is even acceptable to accept a bone marrow transplant, but not to receive a blood transfusion?

    *** Rbi8 Isaiah 25:6 ***
    6 And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept on] the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept on] the dregs, filtered.

    *** it-2 345 Marrow ***
    Red marrow plays an important role in the formation of blood.

    *** it-2 345 Marrow ***
    Animal bone marrow was apparently used for food by the Israelites. (Compare Mic 3:2, 3.) It has a very high nutritional value, being rich in protein, fats, and iron. Jehovah’s banquet for all the peoples, therefore, fittingly includes symbolic “well-oiled dishes filled with marrow.”—Isa 25:6.

    *** w84 8/15 31 Do You Remember? ***
    • Do the Scriptures classify marrow with blood?
    Although red blood cells originate in the marrow, the Scriptures do not classify marrow with blood. Marrow is spoken of like any other flesh that could be eaten. (Isaiah 25:6)—5/15, page 31.

    *** w84 5/15 31 Questions From Readers ***
    The Bible states clearly that God’s servants must ‘abstain from blood.’ (Acts 15:28, 29; Deuteronomy 12:15, 16) But, since red cells originate in the red bone marrow, do the Scriptures class marrow with blood? No. In fact, animal marrow is spoken of like any other flesh that could be eaten. Isaiah 25:6 says that God will prepare for his people a banquet that includes “well-oiled dishes filled with marrow.” Normal slaughtering and drainage procedures never drain all blood cells from the marrow. Yet once a carcass is drained, then any of the tissue may be eaten, including the marrow.

    Of course, marrow used in human marrow transplants is from live donors, and the withdrawn marrow may have some blood with it. Hence, the Christian would have to resolve for himself whether—to him—the bone-marrow graft would amount to simple flesh or would be unbled tissue. Additionally, since a marrow graft is a form of transplant, the Scriptural aspects of human organ transplants should be considered. See “Questions From Readers” in our issue of March 15, 1980.

    Let's see, you have to make the choice whether or not to accept possible blood from a marrow transplant and that is okay. But, if you outright accept blood, that is not okay? Do I see more Watchtower double standard and double speak?

    If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

  • Xena
    Xena

    Let me see if I got this straight....Saul and Co. eat raw unbled meat and they get a BBQ as punishment....JW and Co refuse a lifesaving blood transfusion and they get d/fed, shunned and eternal cutting off....

    makes complete sense to me....NOT!!!

  • TD
    TD

    I agree with you sixofnine,

    A man in such a state of starvation that the extra 20 minutes it would have taken to properly bleed the carcass would have been an issue is unable to even get up, much less "greedily dart" after the spoil.

    The contrivance of an emergency" is simply a cheap trick to associate the account with the blood issue in the minds of the target audience.

    The Questions From Readers in the April 15, 1994 issue of The Watchtower is interesting, especially when contrasted with page 4 of the 1990 brochure How Can Blood Save Your Life. It shows what drastically different spins can be applied to the situation depending on what point the publisher wanted to make.

    Tom

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Six,

    I think the GB would prefer to see children die rather than admit they are stupid and so far removed from any special communique with god that they may as well be atheist.

    So very true.

    What makes the whole issue even more sinister is that they are for the most part totally convinced that they are only following God's instructions and as such bear no personal responsibility for their failures.

    A child dies for refusing blood, a suicide occurs over disfellowhipping, - 'Why blame me, blame God - after all it was his idea'.

    My wife once asked Knorr how he could bear to live with the consequences of some of his decisions, his answer, "That is not my problem, or yours, it is God's. All we have to do is obey".

    Truly sickening - HS

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