From JW to Pagan

by Sirona 42 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GentlyFeral

  Sirona,
  

  1. Most pagans never do "spells" - neo-paganism is a belief system - a religion.

  My take on it: "Pagans worship; Witches do magic."

  E.g. the word "Witch" should not be used IMO due to its negative connotations, neither should the word "spell" (since people always think of a wizard with a wand).

  Let's educate 'em, then. Remember "black is beautiful"? Before MLK picked up that slogan (if he didn't coin it), the PC word was "Negro." Or (wince) "colored." If Mexican-Americans could reclaim Chicano, if Protestants could redeem "Lutheran" (once a pejorative) why can't we reclaim "Witch"?

  I do use a wand, but it's too damn frivolous and distractible to work most spells with. It's good for the kinds of rituals that turn into parties, though.

  And about Witch having "negative connotations": aren't there times when that's precisely the power you wish to draw on, especially for self-defense? In the words of Evelyn Waugh, "There are people one would wish to offend."

  You seem to be confusing pagans with people who make money from trying to sell "spells" to people.

  That's like the nice Baptist lady down the street trying to tell you that Jimmy Swaggart isn't a true Christian (at least not since he was caught in that hotel room with those nekkid women). I don't expect a religious brand name to be a guarantee of goodness. There are pagan shysters and pagan saints and pagans just trying to live their lives.

  COMF,

  Why not pray? It's less trouble and gets the same result.

  Well, as a jaydub I struggled for years with prayer. Found it immensely difficult and neglected it for months at a time because it was drudgery and I couldn't arrive at, or maintain, the correct frame of mind. Never ever felt anything that could be construed as "Jehovah's presence." It was immense trouble, and the results were mixed enough that I was very cautious about what it was "appropriate" to pray for.

  Since I took up magic ("prayer with props" is an excellent capsule description), I've come to a point where I know when I am being listened to. Prayer is frequently a two-way conversation in realtime now. The props help -- guests, visible or not, appreciate being entertained and made comfortable. (Witches, I find that cleaning my altar always brings either good news or good luck.) Results are mixed enough that I have a nearly endless list of things that it is appropriate to pray for -- at the very least, They will be sympathetic or interested.

  And as to whether I'm making it up, that question has been ruled irrelevant for me. Occult spirituality is composed of the Coincidental, the Imaginary, and the Unexplainable -- all of which are real.

  Terence McKenna describes rationalism as a "charmed circle," and I'm inclined to agree. Rationalism is a perceptive filter: it filters out "the Beyond" and discards it. It's a very powerful intellectual tool, and has done much good including pruning the excesses of religion. But it's not a tool I'm very handy with, and it's time I went with my strengths -- spirituality, art and imagination. And conscience.

  GentlyFeral
• 

  Sirona

  Comf: Hurrah!!

  Arachnia, I appreciate you voicing your view of the subject.

  I suppose that's a part of our existance we tend take for granted: we fail to understand one another because we mistakenly assume that our worldview matches everyone elses.

  Yes. Or that our worldview is the only right one. So many problems would be eliminated if people simply accepted other people for who/what they are.

  GentlyFeral: You bad person you! I'm sure that you got into my head this weekend. I'm not joking when I say that over this weekend I have had the name "GentlyFeral" repeated over in my head so many times, I had to speak out loud and say "ok, I get the message!". I intended looking you up on this board today, then when I logged onto this thread I saw your post.

  Anyway, back to topic.... I agree with you about educating people. It would be fantastic if we could speak openly, using words like "witch" and have people understand us. I feel comfortable using those words with those who do understand, but with non-pagans I tend to shy away from it. Thinking about it, I'm not sure if its got something to do with my own embarrassment at using such a word with regard to myself. Actually I'm more a "witch in training"!

  And about Witch having "negative connotations": aren't there times when that's precisely the power you wish to draw on, especially for self-defense? In the words of Evelyn Waugh, "There are people one would wish to offend."

  I've never had the situation where I'd use that word in self defense. What sort of self defense? If its with someone who is not knowledgeable about magick I always would prefer that they didn't know what method I'd used as protection. Still, it is a good point. I have a friend who is known as a witch by the local community, and she has the least trouble from local vandals, etc. since they're all scared of her!

  Sirona

  ** http://www.religioustolerance.org **
• 

  SpiderMonkey

  Thanks to Sirona & SaintSatan for the welcome :)

  And I want to say that I've really enjoyed the healthy debate here, esp. b/w COMF & Sirona!

  But, COMF, I think you should recognize that this opening statement seemed unnecessarily hostile from the beginning:

  I came away with the knowledge that it, like Christian religions, is just another powerless superstition sidetracking humans from reality.

  You state this as "knowledge," and therefore give weight to Sirona's argument, from the very beginning, that you assume *your* belief system to be true. By extension, you seem to assume that others see *their* belief systems to be true, universally true, and this in fact isn't the case with Paganism. My own experience with other Pagans has shown me that most truly believe that your belief makes your reality, and that most respect other Pagans' concept of reality, because they're not (aside from the occasional freak) trying to alter anyone else's. And my experience with spells is limited; I've only tried 3, at various times in the last 5 or 6 years, and of those one was a pretty frivolous one that didn't really need any "magical" help to achieve. The other 2 didn't have *any* business succeeding whatsoever (in your 'logical reality'), and yet did...

  so... What?

  Perhaps, in your worldview, my "spells" succeeded because of a belief in them, a psychosomatic self-fulfilling prophecy. Or you might think I'm *interpreting* "results" in a way that verifies my pre-ordained definition of reality. But, in my experience, whether I provide details of those 3 "spells" and their "effects" or not, you'll claim "interpretation" or "self-fulfilling prophecy," and won't even consider the *possibility* that there could be more to it.

  So who's "right" or "wrong" about all this? My point is: Isn't it in the individual taste, perception, and willpower to make any one system work, whether their own or someone else's? Myself, I'm for coming up with one's own system. That's what's produced *results* for *me*. But who would I think I was if I said I spent an afternoon reading some books and came away with the "knowledge" that a generalized concept of a certain belief system was wrong? That is PERFECTLY analagous to a born-again Christian reading some atheist literature and coming away with the "knowledge" that it's wrong for everyone, because it doesn't coincide with his or her predetermined beliefs.

  To add a counterpoint to your beliefs, my belief is this: Each of us creates our own reality through our own beliefs, not vice versa. So which of us is right, and who cares, and which (if either) of us has the right to say (as you did) that the other is wrong, wrong, wrong?

  SpiderMonkey