Valedictorian Rips Up Preapproved Speech, Recites Prayer Instead (page 25)

Simon

I disagree that Costner acted hypocritically.

It seems hypocritical to make a big deal about a religion, recite the mantra of the chief prophet of that religion and at the same time violate one of that prophets main teachings: Matthew 5:27, Let your yes mean Yes.

though he was willfully deceptive he thinks he was acting wholly within his belief system by prioritizing ideals

Cobblers. The belief system didn't have clauses added to it. It's plain and simple and like most self-professed Christians he fails to live up to it and picks and chooses which bits he wants to follow and when.

i.e. A HYPOCRITE !!

You and I act contrary to a belief system we once held. I don’t think that makes either of us hypocrites or otherwise immoral as though we did something wrong, so long as we are willing to honestly answer for our personal actions and have sound reasons for those actions . Do you?

It would if I still professed to believe in that belief system and preach it to others while violating it's principals. But then I don't do that so no, I'm not a hypocrite.

Having 'sound reasons' for our actions is not an excuse - who get's to decide if they are sound or not? You?

Simon

Of course Costner did not author the lords prayer!

Exactly, so he recited someone elses words ... told people nothing they didn't already know and basically wasted people's time and the opportunity.

In his case Costner repeated the lords prayer because he wholly believes it and he wanted to advance the idea that each person in his community should be as free to say what they believe as he did during his speech, as he did during his speech, and without regard for a particular belief system whether his or another.

Ah, I see ... he was being ever so noble - he just happened to pick his own belief system as also held by the majority of his audience? What a convenient choice ...

Marvin, the facts are simple: he broke the rules, it wasn't noble, he just recited his own brand of religious clap-trap and it was not appropriate.

You can spin all you want, the facts are clear.

slimboyfat

Some people argue as if they were immortal true enough. These Marvin exchanges would be comical were it not for the fact that we should all be doing something better with the time that God did or did not give to us. Like banging our head against a wall or something else similarly more productive.

Giordano

The kid used deception to get his prayer in. Period. What he did probably insulted non believers and reminded Jewish folks and Muslims etc. That this was a Christian State first and last. Good job jerk.

Here's another way a student made her faith based point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/29webspeecheswe.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

Gorton High School

Brittany Cannady

Age: 18

Attending: The Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art

"Welcome parents, teachers, and the Gorton High School class of 2008.

A hearty thanks to Yahweh my God, my family (and all those present today). Students, please give your parents a hand!

I am so honored to be standing before you all today. I thought long and hard about what to say to you, the class of 2008! (and no, this is not the part of our regularly scheduled programming when I throw my speech aside)."

She went on to give a positive and up lifting speech aimed at her classe's future. She ended on this note:

"I hope that you go to college and you take it seriously. No pressure, but what you do there will greatly impact the rest of your life. Oh, and while you’re there, try to find something you like, that you’re good at.

I hope that, if you have a god, you serve him (or her!), and stick to your beliefs."

I hope that, when you change, you don’t change the good things about yourself, and that you do it for yourself, not for other people.

I hope that, even though you’re leaving, you don’t leave your friends or family behind.

Like Madonna, we’ve made it through the wilderness, class of 2008! Through all of the drama, the tests, the papers, the projects, the pressure of SATs and college applications! So congratulations, be proud of yourselves, and most importantly — don’t let these four years be the best of your life. Make Gorton proud!"

To my ear this was more then accepable because she made it inclusive.

Marvin Shilmer

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“It seems hypocritical to make a big deal about a religion, recite the mantra of the chief prophet of that religion and at the same time violate one of that prophets main teachings: Matthew 5:27, Let your yes mean Yes.”

Simon,

That depends on whether keeping a promise will hurt someone else at the expense of helping you keep your word. As I understand it, Costner sacrificed his perceived compelling need for honesty for sake of a perceived greater compelling need to help his neighbors. To me that’s not hypocritical, and in particular it’s not hypocritical when after-the-fact he was willing to say precisely what he did and answer for it.

“…who get's to decide if they are sound or not? You?”

Were the question strictly of logic then the well-known and accepted conventions of logical construction would determine soundness.

In the case of constitutional civil liberties, in the United States the Supreme Court decides whether an act is sound in relation to the nation’s highest law, which is the US Constitution. And, to the best of my knowledge what Costner did is not illegal in relation to decisions handed down by that high court.

In the case of morality, each person will decide for themselves, which is as it should be.

Based on reading today, Costner thought it self-evident that local schools systems should provide the liberty of public prayer at sanctioned events, and that the right to do so had been inappropriately alienated. So he committed an act of civil disobedience in response.

Marvin Shilmer

Simon

he wanted to advance the idea that each person in his community should be as free to say what they believe as he did during his speech

If he'd wanted to do that he should have picked something less obviously popular to the applauding masses than the lords prayer which is pretty weak.

Just like politicians who stand up and say how they love jesus and the lord ... vomit inducing worthless crap.

I would have more respect if he'd spoken out in support for some current minority issue such as gay marriage ... but he didn't. He simply told everyone what HIS beliefs are because when it comes down to it, like most Christians he really believes those are the only ones that should be allowed and promoted and he took advantage of his opportunity to do just that. Nothing more, nothing noble.

Simon

Costner sacrificed his compelling need for honesty for sake of a greater compelling need to help his neighbors

Are you for real? Seriously?

What neighbors did he help?

I could stand up on any platform in the USA and trot out some lame "I love jeebus" crap and get a round of applause. Who have I helped there?

Based on reading today, Costner thought it self-evident that local schools systems should provide the liberty of public prayer at sanctioned events, and that the right to do so had been inappropriately alienated. So he committed an act of civil disobedience in response

What he did was emphasise his belief that minorities shouldn't have a say and that HIS religion should be pushed on them.

Hardly noble.

Marvin Shilmer

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“I would have more respect if he'd spoken out in support for some current minority issue such as gay marriage ... but he didn't. He simply told everyone what HIS beliefs are because when it comes down to it, like most Christians he really believes those are the only ones that should be allowed and promoted and he took advantage of his opportunity to do just that. Nothing more, nothing noble.”

Simon,

And if he’d spoken out on gay marriage he’d have been a hypocritical liar. Right?

Costner did not simply tell everyone his belief. What happened began months prior. What he did during the graduation speech was culmination of much more than a preference for his personal belief system. Moreover, after the graduation speech Costner continued speaking saying his act was for everyone's liberty regardless of preference of belief.

For the life of me I don’t see why Costner reciting a biblical prayer is any more threatening or damaging than reciting anything else. So long as what a person says is what they hold there is opportunity for efficient learning, and without the needless frustration of figuring out whether the person is substantively on the level. Some responses in this discussion suggest people somehow feel threatened or damaged by Costner’s speech. I don’t understand this.

Marvin Shilmer

Simon

Marvin: When you've finished fawning over the noble Christian who simply trotted out the mantra that appealed to the masses, ask yourself how the lone Muslim kid sat in the audience feels while all the Christians whoop and cheer around him or the (OMG) actual kid who can string together independent thought and has figured out that religion is just so much bullshit and would rather not hear it.

THIS is why that sort of populist stunt shouldn't be allowed. It's why we have rules - not to protect the powerful or the majority but to guard against them abusing their position and to act as a shield for the minorities who are easily victimised or made to feel less worthy.

I'm sorry, but I think your opinion on this is completely misguided.

Simon

I don’t understand this

You say "don't" but I think the truth is you "won't" ... but same result.

Valedictorian Rips Up Preapproved Speech, Recites Prayer Instead

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