Theists - Why does Morality require the existence of God?

by cantleave 122 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  slimboyfat

  I don't count a serial killer's happiness as better than his abject misery. So therefore happiness is not always better than misery, in my subjective opinion.

  We have no trouble dismissing such a person...

  I think this is where we differ. I have trouble dismissing the views of others as objectively mistaken, because I know of no basis whatever on which to do so. I can say subjectively that I don't agree with someone who wants to vomit, that I can't understand it, that it doesn't make any sense to me. All those things I have no problem saying categorically. What I can't say is that he is objectively wrong to want as he does and I am objectively correct to take the opposite view. On what basis could one make that statement? I am curious to know.
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  cofty

  So is moral objectivism a matter of concensus?

  No quite the opposite.

  Facts are facts even when nobody assents to them.

  Minds are natural phenomena. There are rigt and wrong answers to what increases well being and what doesn't.
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  cantleave

  So are you talking about the well-being of the individual or the group?
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  cofty

  On what basis could one make that statement?

  Agonising slow death is not better than a life lived without pain and suffering. Anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong - objectively wrong.

  If you don't accept that there is nothing to be said. You won't even conceded the earth is not flat.
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  cofty

  So are you talking about the well-being of the individual or the group?

  Not the individual.

  Harris uses the concept of a landscape that represents the well being of all conscious creatures. The lowest point on the terrain represents the maximum misery for all.

  Morality is about how we navigate that landscape.

  That some actions are better than others is not subjective opinion but objective fact.
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  slimboyfat

  So it's objectively wrong because you say so. That's your argument, really?

  Your example brings to mind Marie Curie by the way. Was she wrong? Objectively wrong to act as she did?
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  cantleave

  Agonising slow death is not better than a life lived without pain and suffering. Anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong - objectively wrong.

  The absolutes are obvious and are indeed measured objectively. But not all "morality" is based on absolutes, much of what is considered a moral framework is a subjective concept, and will vary in different societies or social groups. I think this why can be assured that we do no not have morality hardwired into us by a creator but have constructed them for societal reasons.
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  cantleave

  I must read Sam Harris's book.
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  iCeltic

  To me, the original question has only one answer. Theists believe that morality requires the existence of god because that's what they've been taught to believe. Based on a book. A book that states that god commanded it's people to hide, abduct and rape woman. Not ideal in my view.
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  slimboyfat

  Show me a Sam Harris book and I'll show you a good door stopper, subjectively speaking of course.