Why doen't God perform miracles today?

by sleepy 33 Replies latest jw friends

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    Blahblahblah watchtower-isms.

    Oh PLEEEZZZE. Don't lump me with them.

    Sadly, the truth is less interesting. "Science" as we know it today is a faily new phenomena - 1840s. Prior to the 1840s, the field in question was generally called "natural philosophy", so that even Isaac Newton's great book on motion and gravity, published in 1687, was [I]The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy
    What's in a name...a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. NATURAL PHILOSOPY was the SCIENCE of it's day. (You are correct sir.) The German scientist Zilsel (20th Century) said that the basic task of science is the discovery and understanding of the LAWS OF NATURE....now isn't it interesting that when Plato died in 347 B.C., Aristotle left his school giving the reason he didn't like the growing emphasis on mathematics and theory and the decline in natural philosophy (SCIENCE).

    laws of nature. The discovery and understanding of "Laws of Nature" is, as Zilsel noted, the basic task of science. It might even be said to be its defining characteristic: "Where there is no law", wrote Émile Meyerson, "there is no science."

    Throughout mankind the the phrase could be used "science as we know it". My point is science evolves with new discoveries. What was once thought 'brilliant' could be cast aside with 'what were they thinking'.

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    IMHO, which is not always so Humble, I do not beleive any miricles have happened. The bible uses natural happeneings and explains them as being miricles. Even the Moses story and the plages have been scientificly explained, the parting of the red sea as well. The others that are mentioned in the scripture such as changing water to wine and such that are obvously not natural, I feel are made up to impress people and make it sound soooooooo good. That is why miricles do not happen today, becasue they are explained.

    As far as Faith healers Bahhhh, As far as miricle healings, that are unexplained, Well the human body is a wonder at times and has often the energy to heal it's self. I remember a guy that healed his cancer with laughter, so many things are possible.

    Seedy

  • TexSham
    TexSham

    Great defense wins championships. Great D's like THE FLEX.

  • Outaservice
    Outaservice

    Why dosen't God perform miracles today?

    He Does! Haven't you heard of the many, many, 'two day miracle' Kingdom Halls?

    Outaservice (Who's old Kingdom Hall took ten years to build!)

  • Xander
    Xander

    PHILOSOPY was the SCIENCE of it's day.

    BUT, natural philosophy had no *method*. The steps of the 'scientific method' guarantees results that are useful. A group of Greeks sitting around trying to piece together the nature of the universe based solely on what they know (while a vast improvement over previous methods), is NOT science.

    Aristotle left his school giving the reason he didn't like the growing emphasis on mathematics and theory and the decline in natural philosophy

    That's true, but I'm not sure what point it proves. So humans have been progressing in their use of logic to define their surrounding. Good start.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • JT
    JT

    I have a hard time believing that God would deliver miracles to help a few people while millions of other people suffer
    _________

    that is something i have always wondered but the jw in me didn't allow me to ponder over that issue

    when i look at all the prayers that must have been offered up during the Nazi time, during Rwanda a few years ago, in the congo with over 2million perhaps dead- in Cambodia-

    just think of all the pleading to god that these folks did as thier lieves were about to be snuff out in front of their wives, kids and other family

    I think of all the women who are about to be Ganged raped by soldiers and even just coming home from the store who pray for god to deliver them only to be raped and many times mentally destroyed to the point of never regaining thier Spark and smile in life again

    and when you multiple that by 1000,'s of years and milloons of women

    it leaves me with THERE AINT' NO GOD AND IF THERE IS I DON'T WANT NO FATHER THAT HEARS MY SCREAM FOR HELP AND LET'S ME GET THE SHAFT

    WE SORRY

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    I'm not being facetious here, but the very first thing that popped into my head when I read this.......

    Was the absolute miracle of being able to sit down in front of a "machine", and at a finger's touch, have the ability to be able to communicate with someone in another part of the world; or to type in a "topic" you've always wanted to know about, and have the "machine" run a search on that topic! Or to be able to send photos, find old schoolmates, research your "roots"; find a recipe for Chicken Marsala, learn "how to" build a picnic table or fix a leaky pipe.....and find people who share your beliefs and understand your disappointments.............

    To me, that's a miracle!

    hugs,

    Annie

  • apostate man
    apostate man

    Well I have been holding out, but can take it no more. I know you guys are going to thrash on me for this, but I have witnessed miracles. Yes, it is true, I am not joking.

    When explained to my JW in-laws, they simply chalked it up as "Satans Work".

    Lets dissect the topic:

    1)An Athiest obviously will not believe in a miracle. If there is no God, NO miracle.

    2)Christians believe in God, no matter what religion you are in, whether its 1, 3 or many, like YK believes. Through Jesus, we know that God performed miracles. God is God, then as he is now.

    3)What is a miracle? Do we have to see it for it to be there? How do we know that miracles aren't taking place every single day? I have heard of JW's needing blood to live, refusing the blood and still living anyway. Coincidence? or Miracle?

    4)A miracle I witnessed. I know you will scoff at me, but here goes. This is a true event that I witnessed and only one of many miracles that have happened.

    About 12 years ago, when I was still attending church, a friend of mine from school started to come to church. After awhile his dad started to come also. His dad has his own construction business.

    A couple of months later, the dad fell off a scaffolding when he was at work. He fell 30 feet to pavement and broke his back. It put him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, according to doctors.

    A couple of months went by and this man kept on coming to church. He seemed very sincere and wanted to serve God.

    (For those of you who do not know what a Pentecostal service is like, I will briefly explain. Usually it goes like this. Singing first, testemonials, more singing and playing the instruments(organ, piano, guitars, drums, sometimes sax, trumpet, hermonica, whatever, tamborine...) clapping, prayer requests, then preaching, then alter service, or alter call(where you bow down at the alter and pray or stand with your arms up, palms up and pray.) You can almost always feel the presence of God at sometime, or the whole entire time, during the service. )

    Well, one Sunday night the service was extremely powerful. You had goosebumps and such a great feeling of joy just being there.

    Make a long story short, this man wheeled his way up to the pulpit, in the middle of this great service. The Pastor and the Deacons immediately started to pray for this man. Music is going, everybody singing, clapping, WORSHIPPING GOD, PRAISING GOD and I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it with my own eyes, this man stood up and threw that wheelchair to the side and WALKED! He walked up one isle and down the next, back and forth praising God the whole time. Oh, it was so sweet. Tears of joy ran down this guys face, his wife and kids shocked. IT REALLY HAPPENED.

    There have been other times, with other people, that nothing has happened. I suppose God has his reasons for everything.

    So, mock me if you may, I don't care, I saw it.

    Maybe you are thinking "I've seen this on TV, IT's fake". I would agree that the TV stuff is fake. I grew up with all these people, know these people very well and I know there is no "fake" stuff going on, not in this church anyway.

    One more small miracle that happened to me. When I was 16-17 years old, I was out of the religion. I smoked. One service I prayed through, asked God to remove the habit from me, and immediately I had no cravings. I did not have one temptation. Unfortunately, I went astray, left the church and nine months later at the State high school football championship game, after we won, I smoked again. I am 29 now and still smoke. Yes, I need another miracle.

    Break the chains that bind you,
    unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    How can one say that there were over 300 prohecies fufilled by Jesus, when it is quite questionable whether he was a historical person at all?

    As Xander touches on, there are less than a handfull of references to Jesus in contemporary texts, and those that are there are considered by many scholars to be added later. There is no reference anywhere in any historical document other than the Bible of the dead rising from their tombs and preaching God's word in Jerusalem after Jesus died. How can this be extraordinary event be 'missed' out of contemorary history? Maybe it didn't happen! If this didn't happen, what else didn't happen? The resurrection? The walking on water? The feeding of five thousand? His entire life?

    Look at the parrallels between the Jesus story and the Buhdda story... and by that, I mean go and look at the life story of the Buhdda for yourself. You will be amased at the level of similarity, and Buhdda pre-dates Christ. Look at the parrallels between some Christian beliefs and those of Zorastorians.

    Maybe the reason all those 'prophecies' are fulfilled is that the Jesus story was written so that his 'life' fufilled all the prohecies.

    And, if god cares, and would not destroy a city if there were more than a handfull of good people in it (Lot), why does he now give no sign today? The lack of proof of the existance of god is the biggest proof there is no god. We are meant to work out who is right from a host of religions, not JUST the Christian ones, and we have no evidence to base this on. How loving! Our fate is based on a guessing game where the evidence of the Hindu, Seikh, Muslim or Buhddist is as convincing as that of the Christian.

    Or are all paths paths to god? In which case, why does god allow some paths to be damaging to those that follow them? Is the claim that 'it gets kissed better in the afterlife' any justification for all the harm triggered by religion in the here and now?

    God would not allow his name to be so polluted.

    If there were a loving god, the existance of it and its way would be made obvious by him. All it would take is making big letters, readable to all, blaze in the sky reading "Actually, God does exist" to make people believe. It would be as inarguable as gravity.

    But, not only is there no proof of miracles (other than those that are claimed by religionists of all faiths, all of which elude scientific validation), there is no such obvious path, which means either god does not care, or he does not exist.

    In either case, worship would seem to be futile.

    The comments regarding natural philosophy and science by Xander are spot on. Yeah, the 'scientists' 'of the day' believed the world was flat, that the Earth was the centre of the Universe, that if trains went too fast the oxygen would be sucked out of peoples lungs... all sort of dumb things.

    Sometimes, they even went back to believing dumb things, like the Earth being flat, because religious people made it very clear they would be invited to a bonfire, with them starring as the wood, if they believed otherwise; hell, a Greek mathematician calculated the diameter of the Earth's GLOBE a good thousand years before Colombus 'proved' it was round AGAIN, and the minute the Church knew that there were souls to convert and gold to get, they were quite happy for the world to be round.

    Comparing dumb ass religously influenced natural philosophy using non-scientic methodology to modern science is a non sequiter. The closest comparison is certain biblical apologists whose approach to science is rather un-scientific and reminiscent of the natural philosophers of old. We call them creationists, flood geologists, etc., nowadays.

    Now this does not mean that scientists don't make mistakes, but the entire methodology of experimentation and peer review helps minimise that. Mistakes and charlatans get spotted quite quickly nowadays; the Chinese bird-dinosaur, for example (which was actually made up of two fossils, expertly faked to look like one, and which amusingly is still scientifically important as the two species used to make the fake are both previously unknown and transitional in structure ANYWAY), cold-fusion, etc. Also, as more evidence is found, scientific knowledge is refined. Religious knowledge is not refined with the discovery of new evidence, it's mainly all a big fat lump of assumptions passed on for generations.

    For all religionist's criticism of scientific theory, they get awfully flighty when you point out all they have is a theory which is vanishingly light on evidence. You could bury St. Pete's in Rome under scientific evidence and still have dozens of museums and Universities full of more evidence. So who's silly? Science is a hundred and fifty years old and has proven many things. Religion is thousands of years old and has only proved one thing; that it's a mind virus humans are susceptable too. It's even been scientifically shown that high levels of religious belief is genetic... does that mean people with the wrong genes are in god's bad books by right of birth? Purlease!

    As regards your miracle Apostate Man, your experience in giving up smoking was just self-will, bolstered by the placebo effect of thinking god was helping. If god WAS helping, I think his order of priorities is screwed. Help Apostate Man quit smoking. Watch babies die. Yay god!

    As for the get up and walk incident, well, authenticated X-Rays showing a severed spinal chord would be nice, not cause I don't believe what you say, but because there is a lot of difference between proving a severed spinal chord re-grew in a church service, and having to accept on the evidence that the placebo effect of belief, combined with natural healing proccess, reached a point where the trauma to the spinal chord had healed to a point where walking was possible.

    A spinal chord doesn't have to be severed to be useless, it can be so bruised and traumatised it's regarded as useless, but in such cases recovery can and does occur... even to atheists reading 'Scientific American' (although I have no proof of that, it's just a joke!)

    Miracles are subjective. Science is objective. DIfferent things.

    Anyone with objective proof of a miracle is free to provide it!

  • Xander
    Xander

    Was the absolute miracle of being able to sit down in front of a "machine", and at a finger's touch, have the ability to be able to communicate with someone in another part of the world

    Hmmmmm....looking through the history of the internet....now looking through the history of the PC......nope, not seeing any reference to god, sorry.

    Oh, and SPOT ON to Abaddon's post! I think, a-man, you'll find that the human spirit is a lot more powerful than people typically give it credit for. Somebody can be crippled for life with a not-that-serious injury, and some can be nearly paralyzed and recover.

    Hardly a proof of god, that's more a testament to the success of evolution. (If, as Abaddon said, you have x-rays showing the spinal cord WAS SEVERED, and said man was not involved in any stem-cell research program , then that'd be an impressive event, I think I agree with his conclusion, though)

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

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