The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  EdenOne

  The WTS uses John 3:13 to prove that before Jesus no one was taken to heaven.

  In the NWT, John 3:13 reads: "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."

  Notice a difference to the King James Bible:

  John 3:13 - "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven." (King James Bible)

  Notice the difference in the last bit?

  In the Westcott/Hort Greek Text, the last bit is omitted; However, in all other greek texts, including Tieschendorf's, it is present.

  The text presents a few difficulties:

  a) It appears to indicate that Jesus has ascended to heaven sometime in the past, and descended to earth in the then present time;

  b) It appears to say that no one was resurrected to heaven before Jesus

  c) it appears to say that the Son of man is simultaneously on earth and in heaven.

  To me, the translation that has managed to come up with the wording that expresses more correctly the overall sense of the text is this:

  John 3:13: "There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven." (Weymouth New Testament)

  Considering the context, Jesus wasn't talking about resurrection to heavenly life; rather, he was telling Nicodemos that he had superior credentials to any other man to talk about heavenly things because, unlike any other human currently living, he has lived in the heavens, and he has descented from his natural abode of existence down to earth, to teach people about heavens. When he said "There is no one who has gone up to heaven", given the context and the follow up of the sentence, it is understood that "There is no one who has gone up to heaven [and returned], but there is one who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man, whose home [existence] is in Heaven"

  Therefore, I would translate it this way:

  "No man in existence has gone up to heaven, except the Son of man who has come down, whose home is heaven"

  What do you think?

  Eden
• 

  EdenOne

  *Bump*

  No comments?

  Eden
• 

  Tater-T

  comments?

  I have one... It's stuff like this that made me an atheist... I could no longer believe in something that could be subject to such varying opinions at what it may or may not mean..

  The fact that you have to go to such great lengths to figure it out .. some people may never have the time in their life too .. others may never have the intellect...

  I't s not what you were looking for I'm sure .. but I'm in an over posting phase again.. and it's my observation on this matter.. I do like you and your post though..

  you've actually made look afew things up in the bible.. LOL

  keep it up...

  L8R T8R
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  sd-7

  Too rich for my blood. I've never researched the issue, so I can't speak meaningfully on it. But certainly the WT has a tendency to take statements made in the context of another subject entirely and turn them into an absolute declaration. Especially when it comes to matters of death and resurrection. So...I see your point, but can't really go any further than that.

  --sd-7
• 

  sd-7

  Also, Tater makes a good point. Sometimes I wish the Bible were more like a book that had a Universal Translator attached to it, so it would be easy to understand for anyone and everyone who could read. But then I'm not really big on the Bible anymore myself, save for specific research purposes.

  --sd-7
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  prologos

  it is in the same legue as " the kingdom is in your midst, among you, in your hearts.

  yours Eden is a very good trans-literation. a pleasure to read.
• 

  Pterist

  The whole purpose for the Word to become flesh is to become like his brothers in all respects (Hebrews 2) so that They may become part of a NEW CREATION in HIM.

  Having completed this great salvation the "New Man" can enter through the veil into God's presence that was blocked to all mankind until the veil was ripped and the "WAY" through his death and resurrection was made available. ....

  Psalms 8

  4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
  human beings that you care for them? [c]

  5 You have made them [d] a little lower than the angels [e]
  and crowned them [f] with glory and honor.
  6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
  you put everything under their [g] feet:

  Hebrews 2:

  5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

  “What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
  a son of man that you care for him?
  7 You made them a little [a] lower than the angels;
  you crowned them with glory and honor
  8 and put everything under their feet.” [b] [c]

  In putting everything under them, [d] God left nothing that is not subject to them. [e] Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. [f] 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

  10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. [g] 12 He says,

  “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
  in the assembly I will sing your praises.” [h]

  13 And again,

  “I will put my trust in him.” [i]

  And again he says,

  “Here am I, and the children God has given me.” [j]

  14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the powerof him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, [k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

  Ephesians1:

  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he [b] predestined us for adoption to sonship [c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemptionthrough his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he [d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

  Shalom
• 

  EdenOne

  Thanks for the comments.

  I'll be bringing up some more texts on this same subject ... if there are solid arguments against resurrections to heavens before Christ.

  Eden
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  *lost*

  Thanks for bumping it Eden, I didn't see it, so apologies for not responding, I really do enjoy and

  appreciate your posts and your input and the conversations they generate.

  It could also be said that Jesus is making it very clear, that 'no one' goes to heaven, period.

  That statement should clear up any misunderstandings of 'after life', and false (organised) religions control over man.

  Which was prevalent and very much a part of man's culture, religion and customs.

  Jesus came to 'break up the works of the Devil'.
• 

  Bobcat

  EdenOne:

  "Who is in heaven" is in the Codex Alexandrinus (c. 450 AD), many later MSS and some early translations.

  Without the phrase has better textual support but their is some controversy about it because usually editors take out difficult phrases, rather than add them. So some, but not the majority, think it is original.

  In regard to the whole verse ("No one has ascended into heaven but he that descended . . ."), the BECNT-John commentary (Andreas J. Kostenberger, p. 127) quotes from D. A. Carson who thinks the saying is elliptical (i. e. using an economy of words). He paraphrases it something like: 'No one has ascended into heaven so as to speak authoritatively about it except for Jesus who came down from heaven.'

  In connection with the discussion with Nicodemus in the first part of John chapter 3, Jesus himself tells him that the things he spoke about (concerning being born of the spirit), that these are 'earthly things.' (3:12)

  In my post 131 on this thread I made a comparison between John 3:1-17 and Matthew 19:16-29. The two accounts happen about 3 years apart (give or take). One of the points of interest was the fact that Jesus (in John 3:11) says 'we know what we are talking about.' But in Matthew (about three years later), the disciples don't know anything about ruling or going to heaven. (Mt 19:27) The point I was trying to make by the comparison was that being "born again," in itself, could not be just about ruling with Christ in heaven. The disciples 'knew' what they were preaching about in John 3, but three years later they still did not know they would have an opportunity to rule with Christ.

  Your posts make for some interesting research, Eden

  Take Care