The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Band on the Run

  Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

  Perhaps I should be more polite but I am so tired of ignorance here. Pls my maintenance man father used to spend hours over such texts as a Bethel trained Witness. He had the gall to take on a Jesuit concerning the translation of soul. Guess who lost? It wasn't the Jesuit, My father, so inviested as a Bethelite, had to take to bed. No one was to know that he lost. His JW certainty suffered greatly.

  Nice ministers don't mind playing with the Witnesses a bit. Reality is complex. Anytime a result makes perfect sense scripturally, I know for a fact it is wrong and biased. The best students in NT at Columbia and Union Theologicla were Orthodox Jewish students. They could read the text without bias. I could not despite my best efforts.
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  Vidqun

  BOTR, you are missing the point. View this as a debate. There's no winners or losers here. You can side with the party of your choice, or you can remain neutral. Simple. Oh yes, and we would welcome the input and perspective of Orthodox Jewish NT scholars, they might just add another dimension to the debate. But may I add, I still need to meet an unbiased Orthodox Jew.
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  EdenOne

  I agree with Vidqun, there is no battle to be won here.

  On what concerns me I'm on a quest to better understand the scriptures, once I broke away from the mental mold of the WTS. I'm trying to go as deep as I can into the text and avoiding as much the Bible Commentaries as I can, in order to minimize the risk of absorving information that contains an ideological agenda pre-defined. I only resort to them when I cannot figure out an explanation myself after cross referencing a lot and doing the best exegesis as I can, often with the help of specialized literature. That's my process, which I'm happy to share with others. In this process I already discovered significant differences with the WTS's teachings. Who knows where this will lead? One thing I am convinced of: if I will part ways with the WTS some day it will be for doctrinal reasons, not because they have offended me, or wrong me in any way. I'll consider leaving if I conclude that their teachings are sufficiently far off the mark to consider them hopelessly irreformable. It's a personal quest, but anyone is welcome to join in.

  I'm interested in debating for the sake of learning; not for the sake of winning anything.

  Eden
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  *lost*

  Band, yes, perhaps you should be a bit more polite and a bit less insulting to Eden one, (who has been a new meber for only 4 mths)

  and everyone else here who comes under your umbrella label of ignorance.

  Everyone adds something to the mix, and they quote and give references for their information, which is the 'bones' of the debate.

  I suggest that you do the same, present your source and your evidence for discussion.

  Same as when you studied law, I'm sure you had to study many books, references, sources etc.

  We do the same, we study many sources of varied faiths, beliefs and religions and hisories and cultures, it's all relative.

  We may not have taken exams, we may not get well paid, we do it as a 'work of love' like a passionate hobby.
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  J. Hofer

  theology is as scientific as ufology or scientology. what if all of this was written tongue in cheek while being high on inscence?
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  flamegrilled

  flamegrilled

  You should be aware that the translators of the King James version took the liberty to add the "worms", supposedly to add clarity to the text; However it doesn't exist in the original hebrew text.

  Eden

  Yes, I did know that. I was only really including it as an addendum to what I'd already written.

  It still reads that way in NWT and others to me, as per my "phrase by phrase" comments (which maybe you didn't notice)
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  Band on the Run

  Elaine Pagels told us we had to read the New English Bible, which is very dated. I have several translations. My large leather bound King James version family Bible has beautiful plates of Rembrant paintings of Bible stories. It is huge. Sometimes I prefer the musicality of the KJV. I hate the stripped down Bibles, esp. the Message Bible. It grates on my nerves. The church Bibles tend to be NRSV. I spoke to several people I respect and ended up with the NIV archaeological Bible for study.

  Frankly, if I care about the correctness of translation, I am at a lost. I could not learn Koine Greek at all, let alone know connotations. I had no clue how sketchy the original manuscripts are until I saw the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit. If I just had to know which text was correct, I would check the translations online for many versions. Perhaps I would call a prof or someone very good at Koine Greek and ask. People without extensive Koine Greek are deluded that the English is enough.

  So I look for sophstication. My NIV has so many footnotes referring to other translations. It could be the particular version I have. B/c I read English so much, I want some skilled use of English. The so-called easier to read Bibles destroy the language. I like reading the Psalms from KJV. Sometimes I write key scriptures that move me on index cards. I go online to find the most elegant sounding translation and use it.

  When I spoke with people knowledgeable in Koine Greek, I found much heated debate. I don't think any version is better than the other. With the Internet, I find it silly to use any one text. I would rather know the debate than settle on one source. Personally, I like Bibles that footnote the debate over translation. I don't know enough to know which person or set of scholars is right. I like the diversity. The last thing I want is a NWT.
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  EdenOne

  JH

  I doubt that many thousands of people were willing to risk their lives for a message that was a complete forgery. Even before the internet, frauds could be exposed. I think that simply put, Christianity followed its course, fragmented, dispersed .... and what remains is that salvation is an individual responsability before God.

  Eden
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  *lost*

  Band I agree with you totally on the 'language'. language has lost it's meaning.

  We need to go back as far as we can to the ancient societies where our history came from, the use of language, the espressions and meanings of words.

  the way society was, and how people lived, the different cultures. Try and put ourselves in the 'setting' like when we watch a film, we get all the visuals and the context.

  country people, have totally different vocabulary and use of words compared to town people.
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  Band on the Run

  Absolutely. Frankly, I no longer care much about what the text states. I was passionate about it at one point. The Witnesses mess with your mind. I try to nail down little itsby bitsy details and the experts refuse to be narrowed down. It used to be frustrating. The mind set is the opposite of the WT. I've been studying this for decades. What scares me is I don't know why it is so compelling. What does the absolute correct text mean in my life? Christianity is what we do in our everyday lives. Christ selected illiterate fishermen to lead his church. What matters is how I deal with others in my daily private life. I've written complex term papers. It is of no help in most situations. I put curbs on my research and reading. Other things are important to me.

  I am proud that I am no longer text oriented. Christ's grace is present no matter what you know about any scripture. The apostles did not know Koine Greek. Sometimes I think that these studies distract from more pressing issues in life. It would make sense if I wanted to teach and publish at a major university. Well, you need Koine Greek to do so. Also, how many jobs are there? I never saw myself as minister material. No matter how much I study I will never know what a true specialist is. What do I do with the knowledge? Law seemed far more practical.

  I am not even that religious. These studies are my way of mediating the JW garbage in my mind. I stopped buying books. How many must I read before I am completely satisfied that the WT is utter rubbish. I wish I knew back then what i now know. Of course, I would have lasted perhaps two seconds before ejection from the KH. During the worst part of my illness, part of me wanted to take a subway down to Brooklyn and apologize for all my sins before the WT. My mother would block me so I decided not to tell her. There are safe ways to go down to Brooklyn at two and three am. What would I do, though, if the illness remained? I would sell my soul and still have pain. I never acted on my impulses.

  Basically, I care about people. Individual people. Working in a homeless ministry or an AIDS ministry, I feel closer to Jesus. I've inadvertnetly caused problems in the local Episcopal church. I repeat something from a noteable in NY without citing the source. They are outraged. A priest has to explain that I am correct. It takes a while to calm down the local hoards. Later, I tell the priest who said the remark. We laugh. I don't want to do it all the time.