TO TJ CURIOSO and JEFFRO: First of all, I'm amazed at the focus on detail that both of you address the chronology from this period. But I know it must be a bit annoying to Jeffro that this has shown up as a discussion point here. Of course, I have my own interpretation of both the Bible and secular records. But just from an academic point of view, I wanted to share a few things with both of you, as far as what others of us familiar with this topic would like for either of you to address or realize is out there:
1) Tyre's 13-year siege. The only reference of the 13-year siege comes from Josephus. In this case, both Jeffro and TJ Curioso are in basic agreement that the 13-year siege begins a year after the fall of Jerusalem and ends 3 years before Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year campaign against Egypt. The WTS specifically notes no secular references in this regard beside Josephus' reference to these 13 years plus the Bible's reference to the difficulty of this siege and Egypt being a repayment for that extra hard work. However, please note this sole reference specifically begins that 13-year siege in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar II, which means it would have ended in year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar, a year after the fall of Jerusalem in year 19. This means both of you are misrepresenting and falsifying Josephus' reference. Here is his reference from "Against Apion 1.21"
Nabuchodonosor besieged Tyre for thirteen years in the days of Ithobal, their king; ...for in the seventh year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar he began to besiege Tyre."
So both of you need to fix this misrepresentation about the 13-year siege.
On the other hand, other researchers like myself compare this reference to what the Bible says. This reference would not be a contradiction to the Bible's reference regarding the destruction of Tyre since the Bible, as you both know, indicate that the bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar II's wrath would first come against Jerusalem and then all the other cities. So the fact that Josephus is dating the fall destruction of Tyre in year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar is consistent with the fall of Tyre after the fall of Jerusalem, which occurs in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II.
2) "Tyre forgotten 70 years." Now both of you are familiar with this reference and discuss it. Josephus dates the 70-year exile from the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II to the 1st of Cyrus. Thus note Antiquities 11.1.1:
1. IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.
These "poor people" Josephus is referring to are those who were not deported but left in the land to tend crops. This group fled down to Egypt after the death of Gedaliah, but a small remnant who escaped the scrowd of Nebuchadnezzar returned from Egypt back of Judea as prophesied by the Bible at Jeremiah 44:14,28
14 And there will come to be no escapee or survivor for the remnant of Judah who are entering in to reside there as aliens, in the land of Egypt, even to return to the land of Judah to which they are lifting up their soul[ful desire] to return in order to dwell; for they will not return, except some escaped ones.’”
28 And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them.”’”
These two passages thus agree with Josephus. That is, those of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar are made up of the small remnant that were from Egypt who were deported from Egypt in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. Only the Bible conrfirms that they stopped back in Judea before their deportation that same year.
Thus, there is a 4-year period after the fall of Jerusalem for Tyre to fall, then to have any remaining citizens deported out in year 23. So the "seventy years" Tyre would be forgotten you correspond to Josephus' 70 years of exile for those deported out of Egypt. Thus if Tyre wasn't already completely desolate of people afrter its destruction in year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar II, then any remaining persons would have been deported during this last major campaign into the region by Nebuchadnezzar II in year 23. Thus it is possible to include Tyre with the "nations" that woudl serve Babylon for 70 years, since not only the remnant of Jews from Egypt were mentioned in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year campaign. So Tyre might have been like Jerusalem, destroyed, but with a small remnant population left behind who were then deported in year 23, so that the 70 years of service to Babylon by the nations included the same 70 years of servitude of the Jews of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II.
Finally, also a note to both of you. The desolation of the land for 70 years to pay back its sabbaths was not just for the land of Judea. Note that Tyre is a coastal city of the Northern kingdom. So it was Jehovah's intent to desolate the entire original promised land and leave it desolate for 70 years, and that included both the Northern and Southern kingdom areas. So it was not until everybody from the entire region, including other nations, some of whom like Tyre and Ashkelon which had never been conquered by the Israelites, would be removed off the land so the land could rest for 70 years from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II to the 1st of Cyrus.
Of note to TJC, this would be another critical reason why 607 BCE doesn't work from a Biblical point of view. That's because the 70 years of total desolation could not begin until the Northern kingdom was emptied as well as the Southern kingdom. So when the WTS confirms that those of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II came from the surrounding areas around Judea while maintaining that Judea itself was alrady desolated, they confirm the 70 years had not begun yet. That's because the Northern kingdom had to be desolated as well, including non-Israelite cities such as Tyre. But this also would force you to date year 23 in 607 BCE rather than year 18. So even if you use 537 BCE to end the 70 years, they would still begin in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II; year 19 would fall 4 years earlier in 611 and year 18 in 612 BCE. So 607 BCE for the beginning of the 70 years is never, ever, ever, ever going to work! It is not a credible date even if you use the chronology that dates the return of the Jews in 537 BCE.
3) Egypt desolated for 40 years. Finally, there's the issue of Egypt being desolated for 40 years. If you introduce 70 years from year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II to the 1st of Cyrus ans both the Bible and Josephus do, then there is time for the desolation of Egypt for 40 years. This is not possible when applied to the current popular secular timeline. The popular secular timeline dates the rule of Amasis II from 570 - 526 BCE. That is, from year 35 of Nebuchadnezzar II to year 4 of Kambyses, a rule of 44 years. In the popular secular chronology, when year 18 falls in 587 BCE, then year 23 falls in 582 BCE. From 582 BCE to the 1st of Cyrus in 538 BCE is a period of 44 years, a period that is 70 years according to the Bible and Josephus. Subtract 44 years from 70 and you get a discrepancy of 26 years. When we apply this to life and rule of Amasis II, he would have ruled for an additional 26 years and thus a total of 70 years. If he was in his 20's when he began to rule, then he would have been in his 90's when he died. He died just before Cambyses was about to kill him.
Currently, both of you show Amasis II active in year 9 of Nabonidus which both of you date c. 547 BCE. Our first inquiry comparison thus would be whether or not a 40-year desolation from year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II would have ended by year 9 of Nabonidus? Per the current secular timeline this is a period from 568 BCE to 547 BCE, a period of 21 years. If the timeline is expanded for this period by 20 years, then the 40 years would end just a year before Egypt joined Babylon against the Medes and the Persians. The alliance between the Medes and the Persians would have occurred when Cyrus conquered Astyages in the 6th year of Nabonidus.
The expansion of this period by 20 years has two references:
a) Nebuchadnezzar ruled for 45 years per the Bible rather than only 43 years. The Bible ends the rule of Nebuchadnezzar II in the 37th year of the exile of Jehoiachin. Jehoiachin's exile began on the very last day of the 8th year of Nebuchadnezzar II, after which Zedekiah began his rule. Thus Zedekiah would have begun his rule at the very beginning of the 9th year of Nebuchadnezzar II. This meant an 8-year difference. This is confirmed in relation to the fall of Jerusalem in year 11 of Zedekiah which was year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar II, the same 8-year difference. If the exile of Jehoiachin was counted from the time he left Jerusalem then his exile would parallel the reign of Zedekiah. Thus 37 of his exile would also represent an 8-year difference in reference to the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II. Add 8 years to 37 and you get 45 years. Thus Nebuchadnezzar II per the Bible ruled 45 years rather than 43 years. This adds 2 years to this period.
b) Evil-Merodach ruled for 18 years rather than only 2 years, per Josephus. Ant. 10.11.2 says: "When Evil-Mcrodach was dead, after a reign of eighteen years, Niglissar his son took the government.." In the secular timeline, only 2 years are accorded to Evil Merodach. So this expands this period by 16 years.
Nabonidus was not actively involved in rulership at Babylon after his 3rd year at which time Belshazzar became the primary ruler at Babylon. In historical records such as Heodotus, Nabonidus (Labynetus) and Belshazzar became exchangeable. In the expanded chronology of the Bible, the rule of Darius the Mede is 6 years and the rule of Nabonidus 19 years rather than just 17. Thus if Amasis joined with "Nabonidus-Belshazzar" in his 9th year, that would be equivalent to the 11th year of Nabonidus. In that case, the alliance between Egypt and the Babylonians in year 9 of Belshazzar occurs 1 year after the 40-year period ends.
That is. From year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II to the end of his 45-year rule is 8 years. Add an 18-year rule for Evil-Merodach, a 4-year rule of Niglassar and then a 2-year sole rule for Nabonidus and a 9-year co-rule for Belshazzar(also called "Nabonidus"), and you come out with 41 years.
But that also becomes quite an interesting detail. Not just because this is so close to the end of the 40-year desolation of Egypt, but because it suggests that if Babylon had desolated Egypt and Amasis had gone into exile in Greece for that 40-year Period, then the new threat of the Medes and the Persians to Babylon might have been a key reason for allowing Amasis back into Egypt.
In the meantine, Amasis is known for his close connections with the Greeks, particularly his friendship with Polycrates. He is also known to have been active in Cypres and even contributing to the building work of the temple at Delphi. Later on he is known to have allowed the Greeks to have their own key port city in Egypt at Naucratis. He even married a Greek princess. This is significant from the standpoint of the Bible which would have required Amasis to be in exile from Egypt for those 40 years down to the 11th year of Nabonidus, because this tells us where he and the other Egyptians were during this period: in Greece and Cyprus.
Here's a brief excerpt on him:
Although Amasis thus appears first as champion of the disparaged native, he had the good sense to cultivate the friendship of the Greek world, and brought Egypt into closer touch with it than ever before. Herodotus relates that under his prudent administration, Egypt reached a new level of wealth; Amasis adorned the temples of Lower Egypt especially with splendid monolithicshrines and other monuments (his activity here is proved by existing remains). Amasis assigned the commercial colony of Naucratis on the Canopic branch of the Nile to the Greeks, and when the temple of Delphi was burnt, he contributed 1,000 talents to the rebuilding. He also married a Greek princess named Ladice daughter of King Battus III and made alliances with Polycrates of Samos and Croesus of Lydia.
IN SUMMARY: The Bible and Josephus both date a 70-year period of exile for the last deportees deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II and ending the 1st of Cyrus. This allows for a 40-year period of desolation of Egypt during the reign of Amasis II who becomes active by the 9th year of "Nabonidus" which is likely a reference to Belshazzar since Belshazzar was ruling over Babylon and not his father Nabonidus. This suggests that the threat of the Medes and Pesians to the Babylonians was a key reason for allowing Amasis to return and rebuild Egypt. In the meantime, Amasis has clear ties in Greece. Per the Bible, Tyre was to be destroyed after Jerusalem. Per Josephus, a 13-year siege of Tyre begins in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar II and thus ends in year 20. Since the desolation of the land for 70 years coincides with the last deportation in year 23, the 70 years of forgetting Tyre could easily coincide with the 70-year exile of the last remaining Jews who were deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. In the meantime, using the reference by Josephus of the 13-year siege and beginning that siege in year 20 of Nebuchadnezzar II rather than ending it is either an error or a dishonesty and it should be corrected. In the meantime, 607 BC does not work under any circumstances for JWs since they require total desolation of the land and the land of Judah was not desolated until year 23 since those who fled down to Egypt returned to Judea in year 23. Further, it was not just the land of Judea that had to be desolated but the entire land of both the Northern and Southern kingdoms, which is why Tyre on the coasts of the Northern kingdom was destroyed and the people taken into exile. The claim by JWs that the 70 years began in year 18 or 19 is false and contradicts Josephus' reference to the 70 years, even though the WTS quotes from Josephus to establish a literal 70 years occurring after the fall of Jerusalem.
So both Jeffro and TJC need to correct their misinterpretations and misquotes and then come back with new excuses supporting their anti-Biblical arguments. Thanks, fellas!
