Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?

by Socrateswannabe 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Socrateswannabe
    Socrateswannabe

    Cold Steel, this much I agree with you on:

    "if you're going to understand the Bible you have to forget virtually everything you've been taught, read, or thought you understood. And you should begin by throwing away your New World Translation"

    Prologos, you said:

    "The timing of his resurrection is subject to the above mentioned good observations on Pauls writings, of which Stephen might have known little".

    I agree that if there was a "Stephen", he might have known little of Paul's writings and his concept of a resurrection could easily have been different than Paul's, or different from Jesus' for that matter, since there is no indication that Stephen had direct contact with Jesus. But the JW religion is a belief based upon absolutes--the absolute accuracy of the bible, the fundamental perfectness of anything stated in scripture. The bible doesn't explain to us that Stephen had a wrong concept when he cried out for Jesus to accept his spirit, an obvious reference to an instant resurrection to Jesus in heaven, it just records his words which certainly seem to indicate that he believed that as his fate. The writer of Acts, in the very next verse, contradicts Steven's words by saying that he "fell asleep in death", but the writer (whoever he really was), makes no other comment. So the point of my debate is not whether Stephen was resurrected or not, to where, or when, but rather; how can the WTS reconcile this statement as being part of their divinely inspired, unerring holy bible, since it so obviously divurges from their accepted belief? Maybe someone has found a reference in the WT Library that addresses this and puts their WT spin on it, but I looked and can find nothing.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some of it may have happened b/c the apostles don't come across as very good. If you are writing fiction with an agenda, why report negative things for readers who will not know the truth,

    Over the years, I pretend I am an apostle when I read something perplexing. Until Pentecost, they don't seem to understand any thing. Acts is the Holy Spirit's time to shine. Stephen is willing to die for something he firmly believes. What he said to the Temple authorities was very provocative and outrageous. Normal people tend to cower berfore authority. He was either completely wacko with no common sense or he has a very different belief than James and Peter. Peter encountered Jesus personally over the years and so did Thomas. Peter denies Jesus repeatedly. Thomas doubts. They are hiding behind doors when Mary Magdalene announces the Risen Christ. She is a crazy woman. It sounds so real. I can hear men uttering the same thing today. Stephen is willing to be stoned to death.

    I always tried to make real life comparisons with every day living today. It would be interesting if we knew much more about Stephen and his companions. The writer of Acts doesn't tell much. We only get brief vignettes.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe it is very unlikely that Stephen would have had any contact with Jesus. Jesus preached in Israel. Stephen may have heard stories. I know from much experience that reading about someone and actually encountering the person are very different things. Sometimes I ask favors of Jewish friends to put something in the NT in perspective.

    Stephen's marytrdom is a turning point in the NT canon. It is almost impossible to gauge from the gospels what ordinary people who encountered Jewish thought. The idea of a fully human/fully God God is utterly against the most basic precept of Judaism. If you read the gopsels without a Christian upbringing filter, it is very hard to figure out what people believed. They had no books, films, parents to filter Jesus through.

    This may be nonsense. I assume James, his brother, Peter, and prob. other apostles just hung around Jersualem. Sometimes I wonder why not Galilee. I've heard many interesting sermons about Jesus in the Temple turning over the money tables. I don't think it is an accident that this incident happens at or adjacent to the Temple. Stephen's conception of Jesus strikes me as markedly different from the encounters of the apostles with each other recorded in the gospel. Personally, I think some

  • humbled
    humbled

    It is fair to note tec's comment that Stephen intuited Rev. 6:9.

    On the other hand, it is reasonable to see Stephen as one of the many early Christians who didn't have a fullblown theology--and didn't need it to be a christian.

    The problem is that 2000 years later we have an infinity (it seems) of orthodoxy that would condemn a Stephen for his wrong-headedness, his ignorance of the Truth.

    On the other hand, if Stephen could find his was to Jesus in the afterlife, why can't others be deemed as adequate for "salvation" who find themselves similarly ill-informed?

    Maeve

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    What makes one think that Stephen or anyone else inthe first century knew anything to be considered right about such subjects?

    Stephen was not an inspired prophet.

    Stephen was just a guy who was not good at dodgeball.

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