by Smitty 29 Replies latest jw friends
Plum Krazy you said:
No I take that back. I KNOW SOME CATHOLICS who are guilty and of them only one was a PRIEST. I PERSONALLY know of 7 who are Catholic.2= Dead
2 are DEAD now thank god and 3 are in prison and 1 is now a homeless bum soon to be offed no doubt.
O.K. That's Six. Where's the seventh? Don't tell me still a practicing Catholic?
I am sure the WTS are not feeling any better because of the problems in other churches. Any TV exposure would be bad news.
ISP
Amazing:
I know that the 23,000 figure is for JW's worldwide. That is why my subsequent speculative calculation was also for JW's worldwide.
Expatbrit
Hi Pathoforms:
I fail to see the benefits of wild speculating on how many pedophiles exist within JW's. If anything the numbers this crowd keeps coming with are just plain embarrassing for this community and damaging to the credibility of those constantly bringing them up without providing any proof.
No one is making 'wild speculations.' We did a study Poll back in July that gives us a glimpse into the possible numbers of pedophiles/vicitms in the JW organization in the USA. Recently, based on SilentLambs different sources, the number of 23,000 pedophiles are known to the WTS ... that is not speculating. he just cannot release his sources. That number is for WORLDWIDE JWs. And it fits closely with other percentages. (I posted before I saw your last comment.)
Anyhow, the debate is not over that pedophiles exist, or how many exist within JWs. Whether there is one or 23000+ molesters, an organization needs a socially acceptable policy that addresses the situation in the best possible manner. Let's stick to the issues.The issue is Watchtower policies that contribute to the problem. I agree. That said, unless we establish WHAT THE PROBELM IS, then the policy will seem pointless ... Example, if only one molester exist among all JWs, it would mean that their policy is NOT the problem. However, 23,000 JW molesters worldwide, with about 5,000 JW molesters in the USA means that their policy is TRULY a SERIOUS PROBLEM ... you can't say that the issue is only that molesters exist "without" discussing WHY they EXIST! That is the issue.
Plmkrzy: Yes, I admit that the comparison bewtwen Preists and say JW Elders would be better to make. (or Catholic rank & file to JW rank & file) That number is not known right now with out a lot of extrapolation.
The media issue with the Catholic Church has to do with Priests ... and the numbers of Preists are not all that many ... but the significant fiduciary duty of the Church with these trusted men is what is at issue. The Catholic Church is getting creamed in the media for a handfull of pedophile priests ... whereas the JWs are being ignored. It was my contention to show that JWs deserved every bit as much if not more attention, because their problem is more systemic.
However, with JWs, is it not just JW Elders who are pedophiles, or Ministerial Servants ... but the fact that among their entire population pedophiles continue to prosper because they have historically discouraged reporting ANY pedophile, not just Elders.
Further, even though recently the Society has formally reduced this 'discouragement' they still have a problem because they are not proactively 'encouraging' reporting as do many denominations.
Finally, there are an average of 5 Elders per 120 JWs ... so "IF" this is correct, then among the estimated 5,300 JW pedophiles, there "may" be 200 to 250 JW Elders who are pedophiles. Of the six JW pedophiles I personally knew, 3 were Elders, and 3 were Ministerial Servants. None were just Rank and File. However, I am just one observer.
We would need to create a new Poll to see if those statistics hold, and whether they can be reasonably extrapolated.
Amazing said:
The issue is Watchtower policies that contribute to the problem. I agree. That said, unless we establish WHAT THE PROBELM IS, then the policy will seem pointless ...
However, with JWs, is it not just JW Elders who are pedophiles, or Ministerial Servants ... but the fact that among their entire population pedophiles continue to prosper because they have historically discouraged reporting ANY pedophile, not just Elders.
Will
"I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."
Mark Twain
amazing, i really dont want to get into a numbers debate with you. since you went over your post and redid your sums, im not sure what you are now asking me. i guess i dont understand why your analysis changed from 'Comparatively, the JW problem is over 350 times worse than the Catholic problem' from 'Rather they are likely about the same, or the JW problem is worse' in one day.
anyways, let me just ask some general questions about your last post that are hopefully more constructive. comments from anyone welcome:
The issue is Watchtower policies that contribute to the problem. I agree. That said, unless we establish WHAT THE PROBELM IS, then the policy will seem pointless ... Example, if only one molester exist among all JWs, it would mean that their policy is NOT the problem. However, 23,000 JW molesters worldwide, with about 5,000 JW molesters in the USA means that their policy is TRULY a SERIOUS PROBLEM ... you can't say that the issue is only that molesters exist "without" discussing WHY they EXIST! That is the issue.this makes pretty good sense just conjecturally. now what number between 1 and 23,000 would you consider the cusp between 'problem' and 'not a problem?' on what do you base this answer?
secondly, do you consider the problem of catholic pedophile priests to be a crisis? why? this might seem an odd question given the media focus. but i think consideration of this topic might help focus attention on how to truly identify problems in the WT. since there is much more information available on catholics, it provides a much easier study too.
im certainly not an expert on the subject. i believe if i wished to educate myself on the matter (and i may) the first thing i would do is get a copy of Pedophiles and Priests by Philip Jenkins, a professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University. look around the net a bit for some comments or reviews of this book to get the gist of it. above all, it underlines to me the difficulty in objectively understanding the problem of child abuse.
mox
No one is making 'wild speculations.' We did a study Poll back in July that gives us a glimpse into the possible numbers of pedophiles/vicitms in the JW organization in the USA.
I'm trying hard to keep a straight face here because the subject is not a laughing matter. But your "poll" was a joke because it's margin of error is so high that it can't be used to prove anything. Well, it can prove that some on JW discussion have heard of some molestation stories while they were JWs, but that is all and is hardly surprising or a useful fact.
Recently, based on SilentLambs different sources, the number of 23,000 pedophiles are known to the WTS ... that is not speculating. he just cannot release his sources. That number is for WORLDWIDE JWs. And it fits closely with other percentages.This 23 000 number and it's accuracy has also been contested recently on this forum. While we all appreciate the need for annonymity of sources for such things, 3 supposed emails from un-named sources are hardly enough evidence for this community to put any significant weight to. The 23 000 number and whatever it means is still speculation at this point in time.
you can't say that the issue is only that molesters exist "without" discussing WHY they EXIST! That is the issue.Molesters exist, simply because they exist. Something is very wrong with these sick people. We are talking about whether present WT policy goes far enough to reasonably protect children and see that molesters are brought to justice. As far as past policy goes, clearly the WT was not as explicit as to what should be done and some elders likely handled the situation inappropriately. A case by case examination into the facts needs to be done to see to what extent the WT or their elders were negligent when we discuss the past.
I am saying that we cannot allow our hatred for the WT to colour our perception of the facts or for us to sensationalize things surrounding this issue in an effort to "bring down the WT" by the expoiting of molestation victims.
I am thinking that the Society's explicitly stated policy in the 02-02 BOE letter clearly states their position that no one should be discouraged from reporting the matter to the police. I am at a loss to understand why everyone feels that this is not sufficient? What exactly is this crowd demanding from the Society in the way of change regarding these matters? And if you get what you want, will it be sufficient and be all that you are hoping for?
Path
Plum Krazy you said:
quote:
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No I take that back. I KNOW SOME CATHOLICS who are guilty and of them only one was a PRIEST. I PERSONALLY know of 7 who are Catholic.
2 are DEAD now thank god and 3 are in prison and 1 is now a homeless bum soon to be offed no doubt.
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2= Dead
3= In Jail
1= Homeless Bum Soon To Be Offed
O.K. That's Six. Where's the seventh? Don't tell me still a practicing Catholic?
SunScapes Is that the BEST you can do to ATTACK ME? Why do you want to ATTACK me anyway? You got a problem with me too? Who else?
The 7th IS MY EX HUSBAND ASS HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Treat people as individuals do not label them otherwise you become the evil you seek to destroy.
I would like to make two clarifications based on the information I have at hand. First, the five year figure is not meant to say 23,000 in the last five years. In the last five years the Society has implemented a detailed summary that is collected over the telephone by computer entry. This was not in use previous to this. The 23,000+ figure would go back further than five years but would include a portion of molesters with the new data entry system.
Second, the figure is not a worldwide figure, but instead takes in Canada, USA, and English speaking Europe. The maximum figure of JW's from that standpoint could not be more than 3,000,000 and perhaps closer to 1,500,000 to base you ratios on.
This should give a more accurate look for any statistics you may wish to speculate with.
I encourage all to email Dateline in a kindly way to remind them to run the program.
This quote assumes that the molestors are only molesting JW kids. An unlikely case.
So, 1,500,000 children total and 1,610,000 victims.The mathematics doesn't stack up.
Expatbrit
Dung sums up the entirety of our frustration, anger, and confusion in the following:
t is one thing to stand idly by while a crime takes place. It is another thing to punish victims more so than the offenders and penalize offenders for getting help and the Watchtower does just that--dating back to at least the early 1960's ---and they did it in print!!!!
A lot of us here have been through this personally. First my non JW mother tolerated a man molesting both my sisters for years. Then we moved back to live with my father, and begin school again (mum kept us out of school for the seven years that she enabled a man to abuse her kids). The molestor showed up in front of our house. My dad and uncle and I hunted him down, motel to motel, since I knew the types of places he stayed in, until we found him, and had him arrested. My dad got a write up in the paper about how he rescued his kids. Then he did the same thing to both of my sisters. My one sister finally left, and of course she was just rebellious.
I left after being with him for three years. A year later my other sister left. We reported it to the elders he was disfellowshipped for a wopping six months. I know women who have had sex one time and still, after eight years are not reinstated. And they are witnesses not apostates! Other women who have been raped and many years later still are not reinstated! But a child molestor gets six months.
When my sister finally said hell with it and went to the courts...We were told that we could answer their questions but could not volunteer information, and could only speak to them if they contacted us, we could not contact them. The police that is. My other sister informed the elders at our hall that my father had also molested her years ago, but that when the elders from his hall had asked her, she got nervous and said no he had not. So the elders from our hall told her since she had already denied it, she was not allowed to retract that statement, and could neither bring a charge against him or to the police, that she had in effect 'forgiven' him.
We did not have to be told that had we done so, we would have been liable for slander. The kick all of it was the elders supported him when he went to trial. My youngest sister was there. He asked the judge, 'can I take my bible with me?' What the frag ever! And now this post is about to turn very angry so I am going to pause and continue reading the thread. With this, there is a large difference between what the church has done and what the hall has done. And I dont mind the skewed statistics, we know it is based on IFs...thanks for posting them Amazing...
GRRRRRRR!!! WHAT THE FRAG....You want proof, tell you what I will send a post to child molestors everywhere to be sure to leave their semen as evidence, to video tape their crimes, and while they are at it, to invite two or three lawyers and law enforcement officials over to witness their abuse, then we can have some proof. Are you even aware how difficult it is to get proof? My father ONLY got dfed because he ADMITTED he did it. They called him on the phone and said charges have been laid against you, and he responded they are true. Had he denied it? He would be sittin pretty right now. Proof, In a few days I will get both my sisters on here. And then I will tell you how my father used to go into their rooms at night, and would argue with my step mom who wanted him to leave the door ajar.
I fail to see the benefits of wild speculating on how many pedophiles exist within JW's. If anything the numbers this crowd keeps coming with are just plain embarrassing for this community and damaging to the credibility of those constantly bringing them up without providing any proof.Amazing said:
The issue is that the Watchtower has no room to talk against the Roman Catholic Church, and therefore, the NBC Dateline program wouild be a significant blow to Watchtower, IncI try to go easy on the watchtower a lot. But this is one burr in my ass. Shortly after I became an ex and had discovered silent lambs I was bringing it up all the time to my wife. Her additude is that we dont KNOW that this or that one really was molested...that all of these people were just making it up. And she KNOWS I am telling the truth, we were married shortly after all of this occured. Then an article came out, and it briefly mentioned false religion being so because it supports child molestors. That was at my angry stage. Had a member of the governing body been here then, or the writing committee, they would have been seriously hurt. Mostly I am over my anger, until the molestation issue comes up. But most *especially* when they rail against the church. Bugger off
Amazing said:
The media issue with the Catholic Church has to do with Priests ... and the numbers of Preists are not all that many ... but the significant fiduciary duty of the Church with these trusted men is what is at issue.And the fact is that with the catholics there is not an expectation that if a fellow parishioner molests your kids, you are required to report it to the priests first. With Witnesses, every deed usually first goes to the elders. A catholic just calls the cops. When the witnesses go to the elders they expect the situation dealt with and the cops called as well. They find out that if they do call the cops they face judicial action in the congregation.
The thinking of jehovahs witnesses is so skewed to a particular mindset that most dont even think, hey I better call the cops, and then let me call my elders. And probably woe to them if they did. It never entered our mind to call the police first. The police are part of satans system. The police are corrupt. The police are the ones that are going to torture us during the tribulation. Are these statements made outright? Of course not but we all know that is what we are taught.
So since they have taken the responsibility to hear our cases before we go to a court, or are allowed to go to a court, they had a fiuciary duty to protect us. The blood that is on their hands is incalculable. I cannot even begin to tell you the great harm this has caused in my family to this day. The emotional trauma both of my sisters are going through. And if I were to sit and tell you the entire store, you would think me a liar. This is why I say, over and over, though I am amoral, there is one moral code that I do have, leave the children alone!
Amazing also said:
However, with JWs, is it not just JW Elders who are pedophiles, or Ministerial Servants ... but the fact that among their entire population pedophiles continue to prosper because they have historically discouraged reporting ANY pedophile, not just Elders.That stands on its own, thanks again amazing.
Pathofthorns said:[quote]I am saying that we cannot allow our hatred for the WT to colour our perception of the facts or for us to sensationalize things surrounding this issue in an effort to "bring down the WT" by the expoiting of molestation victims. [/quotes]
It has occured to some that there is an intense hatred specifically because of the molestation issue. This is the single thing about the watchtower society that angers me. Disfellowshipping saddens me but I can deal with that. This, issue however gets me fighting mad. I want to scream. How deep does it run? Really ask yourself, how many congregations are having this problem? Doesnt each of us know of several people that have had to deal with this? I myself saw it in both congregations that I was a member at. The mother of one girl who was molested in my second congregation was disfellowshipped when an MS was publically reproved. For what we knew not, but it was a public reproval. This was a fella I liked. SOmeone I took my neice and nephews over to see! Not a single warning. And the elders knew our situation! I do not hate the watchtower society, but this problem has been so deep for so long that some of us are just plain fed up.
