How exactly did Paul keep in touch with his network of churches across the empire...

by mP 84 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  @how

  The Persucution did NOT stop the letters from travelling. However it did change Chrstian theology for decades and gave birth to the modern idea of 'The Antichrist'

  mP:

  DOnt you see the irony and stupidity of this statement. Nero is persecuting christians and many others, and we are supposed to believe they are sending communications thru the imperial mail in plain text. Any government official could then read these letters and find the same christians for punishment. Thats absolutely idiotic, next your going to tell me jews ordered Menorahs and had it home delivered under Hitler, which basically amounts to the same thing.
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  Band on the Run

  Christian perseuction was not what most believe. It was episodic and geographical. Most of the time, it had nothing to do with Christianity and more to do iwth an economic downturn, social unrest, and the high price of gladiators. The popular notion of perseuction as in Nazi Germany is wrong.

  Commerce ruled. The Pax Romana brought sophisticated relationships. Paul knew. Traders and regular citizens moved around. It is not Galilee during Jesus' times.
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  mP

  @BotR

  There was no persecution, xianity adopted jewish persecution and made it their own history. Thats plain dishonest, to rewrite history and make claims like that.

  Of course all empire is about commerce, the only problem is there was no mail system, Paul was living on modest means, and the logistics of keeping in touch with dozens of dozens churches scattered around the med doesnt add up.

  Just think how difficult it would be to repeat the same without our modern communication aids, no phone, email, telegraph, mail etc. Traders arent going to delivery letters for Paul or anyone out of charity. They are busy with trading, they dont care about xianity's letters.
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  Phizzy

  I had never thought about this aspect before mP, and have to agree you are right. Maybe Paul did write the odd missive in the hope that in time it would get to the intended recipient, but the picture the NT paints seems false in the light of how things actually worked back then.

  At best he must have used personal friends to deliver his letters, like Stephanus, but they would only travel when necessary, not just to deliver a letter.

  Which makes it a total joke when the WT bases things on the supposed time a letter took to arrive.

  For instance, the claim that the guy "DF'd" in 1Corinthians was reprieved about a year later by what Paul supposedly wrote in 2nd Corinthians, the dating of any of these writings is problematic, so to base procedure in the modern JW congregation on supposed dating is ludicrous.

  The only blessing of the WT view is that many get reinstated after about a year, but really no real scriptural reason is the basis for this, mind you, DFing doesn't have any true scriptural basis in the first place !

  Many scholars feel that the guy in the second letter is not the same as the one in the first anyway, so another problem.
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  HowTheBibleWasInvented

  @mp:

  Let me back up a bit:

  There were only 2 waves of persucution:

  The mid-lates 60's (Nero and it was Jews who were persucuted. Christians got caught up with this sice they were Messianic-Jews or Jew loving Gentiles)

  The 90's(Domitian)

  Paul probably preached in the 40,50s and early 60s.So let's start with the 40's (A reading of Galatians 1 and 2 would answer all your questions btw)

  in the 40's Paul and his companions worked through Galatia, Aisia Minor and Greece. (NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT FAR AN WIDE! It is all well connected and the sea crossing in minimal)

  In the late 40's Paul had to adress the issue about beleivers having died before the end came. The letter likely reached Paul in Corinth. From here Paul responded with 1 Thessalonians likely using Silas or Timothy as bearer.

  Now: How did they know where Paul was? Easy. If you read Paul's letters you will find that, contrary to Acts, Paul spent many months at a time in Corinth. Likely he left Macadonia for Asia Minor to winter that year.

  Next came a major issue. The churches in Galatia. It would seem that after Paul's trip back to Jerusalem and his dispute with Peter that the Jerusalem church wanted to take control of Paul's churches and make them conform to the Mosaic Law.

  Now:Word would have reached Paul in Corinth easily by well travelled roads. In return Paul wrote Galatians and likely sent it by the same disciple that informed him. (Barnabbas?)

  Paul travelled now to Ephesus and gave birth to a network of messages back and forth to Corinth. Schoolars refer to this as the Corinthian coorspondance and it includes 1 Corinthians and Parts of 2 Corinthians.

  At this point Paul sends 2 letters to Macedionia and Achaia (2 Crinthians 8,9) requesting money for the churches in Judea. We have now reached the 60s.

  Paul now does something insanely stupid and aids a felon named Philemon. Since this short letter states Paul is in chains were can determine Paul sent this letter by means of Philemon back to Onesimus in Colossee (Not far from Ephesus) and asks to not only accept his formor slave back but also to send relief. Paul also bids the Philippian church arcoss the sea for money as they are his favorite church. (Phillipains 2,3) He names Timothy as the bearer.

  Paul is released but no by any help from Onesimus! The church in Phillipi bails him out. In return Paul again sends a thank yoou letter to them (Phillipians 4)

  Paul now sends ahead to Rome. The Roman churches were not founded by him and for all we know this is most likely his first trip there. But the Romans have heard about Paul the crazy guy. They think he hates the law and Israel. Paul in his letter (Romans) addreses this.

  And guess what!

  He ends up in Rome in the heart of Nero's persucution! Uh oh. Paul is jailed and sends one final letter* to Phillipi (Phillipains 1) where his indicates he might die but to die would be gain.

  * If there is a historical core to 2 Timothy chapter 1 and 4 then Paul MIGHT have sent another letter after this one but 2 Timothy was reworked into a Pastorial around 100 years later)

  Note in many cases Paul was NOT being persucuted and neither were his followers. aul usually stayed in the same area of Aisai Minor or on specific routes.

  Paul used his own diciples to deliver letters.

  This model I have just shown where Paul doesn't travel much, uses his own disciples and only undergoes persucution from Jews and Rome (when in Rome at the end) is NOT MY MODEL!

  Rather this is a recent recontruction by historians and scholars.

  DO NOT USE ACTS TO RECONSTRUCT PAUL!

  A good read is:

  The Authentic Letters of Paul
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  Band on the Run

  If you read any English, European or Middle East history you don't need any formal mail system. How do you think the colonists in America communicated with their family back home in England. Ships took letters. Illiterate people in Europe would pay someone who was literate to write a letter, which was transported to a ship, and then business types delivered the letters. It was not fast.

  Of course, if it were truly important, the delivery could be swift. Royalty would receive messages in a few days. Heck, the Aztecs had an elaborate delivery system. Paul's churches had wealthy members who were zealous. Also, the news did not have to come to Paul directly. Cities knew what happened in trading cities. If someone seized power in this country, I would find ways to get messages out. You don't need a formal mail system.

  How do you think the Caesars and the Roman Army knew what was happening?

  How did Egyptians know what happened?

  Christ and Christology were essential to early Christians. Christianity was not about Santa Claus and sleds. Do you think the most affected people could not leave their jobs for a while and travel to Paul. Paul was plugged in. His genuine letters reflect relatively current knowledge of his churches. Also, if you think Paul was stupid, he was not. He knew what Jewish Christians were doing. Once he leaves town, a self-appointed emissary or a direct messenger from James and Peter visit his churches to denounce his gospel. The locals are confused. Paul was winning. They adore Paul but these new people knew Jesus personally. What should we do?

  Read Paul's letters rather than WT literature. He is not the man the Witnesses teach. His letters are about grace, not Law. Law is discussed only to show how important grace is. All the time in the Witnesses, the thousands of times I read Paul, I had no clue what Paul actually wrote. Consecutive verses and reading his genuine letters help.

  Why is this topic so important? Paul's version is believed by 98% of Christianity. Jews learn Paul's version. Paul invented Christianity, not Jesus. He is even a feminist in some genuine letters. He is not an evil man. The WT is evil when it teaches its lies about Paul. I know. Certain verses attributed to Paul used to make me want to vomit.

  Paul is very impressive, esp if you are Christian in belief. No apostle comes close to Paul. Christianity never would have survived without Paul. If not Paul, someone like Paul would have had to show up.
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  mP

  @phizzy

  At best he must have used personal friends to deliver his letters, like Stephanus, but they would only travel when necessary, not just to deliver a letter.

  mP:

  But given P was moving about how would his friend know where to catch up with him ? If P changes his mind or itinery out of bad luck, like getting thrown in prison, how would they find him ?

  Did P honestly have 50 friends following him so he could send a message to 50 different churches ? Perhaps he had 5 friends and they dropped messages one by one to targetted churches. That would mean the messages would take months if not a year to get delivered. How would the 50 churches afford to give money to someone to make the trip to deliver some message. Messages are effectively costing thousands in just trip allowances.
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  mP

  how:

  There were only 2 waves of persucution:

  The mid-lates 60's (Nero and it was Jews who were persucuted. Christians got caught up with this sice they were Messianic-Jews or Jew loving Gentiles)

  mP:

  So my reply before about Paul sending letters thru some imperial mail system about xianity must be a joke makes perfect sense. That would mean messages could only travel via secure personal means, that is beleivers or friends.

  C were very different from jews in what they believed. perhaps the so called difference is an invention. We have one group not working on saturdays and another who ignore this and yet we are too believed people got confused between the two ?
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  mP

  BotR

  If you read any English, European or Middle East history you don't need any formal mail system. How do you think the colonists in America communicated with their family back home in England.

  mP:

  The problem is, people in olden days were pretty much stationary once they made their big trip. Even if said relative moved along, they would write back and the communications would be established once more. The far away relative was most likely the one initiating and informing relatives back in the old country of their new location. In Paul we have the opposite. The stationary churches are continuallying writing and finding Paul and telling him of their troubles, joys and so on.

  How did they find him, when he was constantly travelling ? Letters took months to make the round trip, by that time P many times would have moved along perhaps not once maybe twice or more. He only needs to make one different turn and it becomes increasingly difficiult to find him.
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  mP

  @how

  in the 40's Paul and his companions worked through Galatia, Aisia Minor and Greece. (NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT FAR AN WIDE! It is all well connected and the sea crossing in minimal)

  mP:

  Everything is far when you have to walk hundreds of kms. WHen you have tens of cities and churches in this area, how do you pick which once to send the letter to if you want to tell paul something ?