The President addresses the Nation

by designs 257 Replies latest social current

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  Simon

  I agree with the sentiment designs, but I don't think that can be applied if the guy is on top of you beating your brains out right there and then. At that point the chance for different outcomes has long since gone and all bets are off - its kill or be killed. I think it's fair to say people would want to avoid a bad situation but unfair to say they shouldn't defend themselves if they are attacked - that isn't the same as fantasizing about shooting someone a la taxi driver.

  Hopefully people will not get themselves into that situation but sadly, we know they will. The ones who most need to learn something from a situation are often the least likely to learn it - that is precisely why they end up the ones who most need to learn it in the first place.

  It's round and it bites - yes, it's a vicious circle.
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  designs

  Well I work with guys who have been extremely violent in their lives. I know not to push their buttons or go chest to chest with them, it triggers old responses, and any of these guys could mop the floor with me but they don't because they repsect the old man and they know I'm teaching them stuff about life and how to handle situations without their fists and a trade they can make a living with.
• 

  Simon

  So if one of the guys 'flipped' one day while you were suggesting something he didn't like, would that be your fault if you managed to subsequently defend yourself?

  Now make it someone you don't know on a dark rainy night ...

  That's why I believe GZ was the initial victim and has then been victimized again by people using the incident for political purposes and pushing for 'justice' without evidence. Fairly pushing for charges and a trial if you believe there has been a cover up is one thing but the media manipulation, threats and refusal to respect the verdict after a trial has been conducted is something else.

  There are good reasons why the persuit of justice is removed from the hands of grieving families and instead conducted by what should be an impartial judicial system. Everyone sympathises with people's loss but no one should expect them to make rational decisions or have a balanced opinion. When I see people marching them from rally to rally I just see someone being taken advantage of and their grief exploited.

  While I have every sympathy for anyone who suffers genuine discrimination I have a low tollerance for people who see race as a valid target and / or who use race as a weapon to manipulate and bully others and trample over others in the process.
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  designs

  I see your point on that and personally I work to not make that outcome happen, and the guys do flip out and I have to take control of the situation but without violence. But you learn those things as an adult and with some training as a counselor.

  I see George at fault for several reasons- he is the adult with the life experience. He says the neighborhood had a lot of burglaries so he knows burglars carry weapons and the guy he's looking at then must have something on him, knife, screwdriver, small pipe. He knows a burglar, from life experience on the streets, when confronted will fight you. He says the guy is high on something, which makes him very dangerous, more reasons as an adult with life experience to let the police do any confrontations. He knows he is not a good fighter, in fact pretty terrible, but he has something that will change any scenario he might face, a gun. And so he does something as a street smart adult he should know better than to do and so a teen whose brain is still developing, who doesn't have good restraining mechanisms that an adult develops ends with a bullett in his chest.

  George would know at least as much as I know about violent criminals, being street smart, but one thing flipped off his inner-voice and that was a gun.
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  Glander

  designs - Out of sincere infection for you I would say please stop digging. Your post above is so completely out of touch with the reality of what happened that I am kind of embarrassed for a fellow geezer.

  GZ did not know who he was observing. He did not have a copy of the written profile that you feel should have influenced him.

  He was not obsessed with carrying a gun. He had not pulled it from the holster and didn't until he had a broken nose, the bigger guy was on top and was dribbleing his skull on the pavement and felt him going for his weapon.

  How invested are you in this open and shut case?

  Wait for something real to spend your credibility on.
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  designs

  Well Glander I disagree with you. I work with guys with criminal histories, I know they can be helped. I am certain a kid like Treyvon could have grown up and turned out alright with a few things going his way from the adult world.
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  Simon

  I think there's a lot of conjecture in there but I get the point you're making.

  I saw George as trying to be helpful to the police and neighborhood but perhaps being a little too enthusiastic to help. I don't think he ever intended to confront TM but wanted to inform the police which way he'd gone (as he was assuming that he had run off) and when TM challenged him with "do you have a problem?" (paraphrasing) he responded with a decidedly unaggressive "uhm, no ...". Yes, he sounded like someone who didn't fight and didn't want to get into a fight. The gun he had was at the insistence of his law-enforcement friends as a "just in case" means of protection and I think that is what it ended up as. A sad need in a sad situation.

  We can't hold people liable for not making the perfect decisions that we can't even agree on after months of analysis.
• 

  Simon

  Yes, if he'd been the armed vigilante that people tried to portray him as I think you have to picture him with the gun already drawn and 'in persuit and ready for trouble'. The "do you have a problem" challenge doesn't fit in with that though - I don't know the exact words but I'd be saying "woah, don't shoot me! what the heck you doing!"
• 

  designs

  Simon- I'll tell you how stupid you can be as a teenager and your underdeveloped ability to hold your reactions in check. I slugged my High School Gym Teacher, he came up on me for something I was doing and I slugged him, oh man was that a mistake.
• 

  Glander

  Well Glander I disagree with you. I work with guys with criminal histories, I know they can be helped. I am certain a kid like Treyvon could have grown up and turned out alright with a few things going his way from the adult world.

  We don't disagree with this at all.

  I was addressing what actually happened. These young men you are trying help are living in a dangerous lifestyle. Everyone would like to see them get out of it and have a good life.

  Good luck and sincere best wishes for what you are doing. If you can influence just one to change his course it is worth it.