by wizzstick 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I've been reading CoC and RF highlights that Luke 21:28 says: " But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near."
I'm thinking on how no one who saw the start of these things is alive from 1914. As a comparison point, does anyone know when the WT suggests the Last Days started in the first century?
Was it when Jesus said the above?
Or in 66BCE?
Or don't they speculate as such?
In Matthew 23:33-37 Jesus said that judgment would befall "this generation" then alive when he was speaking (33 AD). As he left the temple, he told his disciples about the coming destruction of the temple. (Matt 24:1, 2) This prompts the disciples to ask "when will these things be?" (Matt 24:3) From 24:4 thru 24:14 describe events before "the end." From 24:15 thru 24:31 describe "the end" that they had asked about. Then in 24:32 thru 35 Jesus illustrates via a fig tree that "this generation will not pass away until all these things (verses 15 thru 31) take place.
So, "these things" of verse 33 refer to the actual destruction that occurred in 66-70 AD. But it was "this generation" alive in 33 AD that Jesus said would experience all of that.
Applying "this generation" of Matt 24:32, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 to any other time violates the actual context that they occur within. Many, not just the Society, feel there is a secondary application due to some of the extravagant language of the passage (e.g. 24:21). But seeing a future application requires also dismissing some of the specific first century language (e.g. 24:16, 20) and the use of "this generation" by Jesus in 23:36 and his linking it with the destruction of the temple.
There are similarities with Revelation - but not entirely. And it is precisely in the differences that the Society has faced problems. For example, Revelation mentions nothing of a "generation." Matthew has "earthquakes in one place after another," whereas, Revelation only has two symbolic "earthquakes." (8:5 = 11:13; 6:12 = 11:19 = 16:18)
Thanks Bobcat.
Appreciate your help on that.
We know Jesus Olivet prophecy (synoptic) reaches beyond the first century because the conditions (e.g. 'worst tribulation ever, nor will occur again'; as well as Jesus' 2 nd arrival where 'the entire world will see him.' Mt 24:30; Rv 1:7 didn't happen in the 1 st century as well as some of the Scripture precursor particulars below.
Mt 24 YLT
3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
7 'For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 Yet all these are the beginning of pangs. CLV
21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.
37 and as the days of Noah--so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;
45 'Who, then, is the servant, faithful and wise, whom his lord did set over his household, to give them the nourishment in season?
48 'And, if that evil servant may say in his heart, My Lord doth delay to come,
49 and may begin to beat the fellow-servants, and to eat and to drink with the drunken,
Mk 13 AV
8 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Lu 21 NASB
10 Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,
11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
25 There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
IMO nations and kingdoms WWI & WWII , "pangs" woe , Noah's day echo violence, Atheism, 100 yrs , the "evil slave" Mt 24:48-49 and the sharp contrast between the "wicked and wise" Dn 12:10 lead me to believe Mt 24, Lu 21 and Mk 12 ultimate projection is the 21 st century. I live my life accordingly. The JW iteration is part of the "evil slave" event. Those who separate themselves from this "evil" element and diligently seek Biblical truth are aligned as with the "faithful." Because of computers networked around the world, diligence makes Biblical truth available to everyone "faithful."
Jesus began ruling after his resurrection in the 1 st century. But his second arrival is as explained above, I believe.
The BIble is referring to its favourite topic, the kingdom of Judea. Luke is referring to the times that had just passed. At the time the Jews were trying to rebel and fight the Romans. There were many false leaders who claimed they were chosen for to lead the people. In Hebrew they would be called messiahs. There are no prophecies, everything in t he OT is written after the fact about local events. If you read the gospel literally it matches the events of judea at the time.
There is no Arimathea, Joseph of Arimathea is a play on Joseph bar matthais. Judas Iscariot is of a play on Scariot one of the religiously nutty groups that were terrorising other jewish people who were trying to live their lives.
bttt
It's also interesting to speculate that the gospel of Mark was written around 65-70ce so the events allegedly spoken of by Jesus were happening at the time. Mathew, written 10 or 20 years later needed to explain the delay between the destruction of Jerusalem and the final "end", so he has Jesus speak of worldwide preaching. This could be the first "this is why it hasn't happened yet" theological revision in Christian history.
This also explains why Mark's prophecy is fairly simple and straightforward but Matthew's is multilayered and confusing.
Leolaia's post here touches on some of this, her post on the second page is very interesting too.
At Pentecost 33CE, Peter quotes from Joel: "In the last days God will pour out his Spirit...."etc. Changed in the NWT to "In the final part of the days", to deliberately confuse, because it does not compute with their 1914 rubbish. Jesus began to rule as King upon his ascension (see Phill 2: 6-11) and the" last days" began. In 2 Tim 3 1-5 Paul is describing to Timothy conditions pertinent then, it is NOT a prophecy marking 1913 as the last "normal" year.
abba:
What proof have you got that Peter ssaid anything ?
sapphy
It's also interesting to speculate that the gospel of Mark was written around 65-70ce so the events allegedly spoken of by Jesus were happening at the time. Mathew, written 10 or 20 years later needed to explain the delay between the destruction of Jerusalem and the final "end", so he has Jesus speak of worldwide preaching.
mP:
How do you know what that final "end" was ? No where doe sthe bible say what it is, most of hte language is referring to current events where some jews were trying to fight and defeat the romans. The end was they lost.
