by ozziepost 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
"how was it this snake didn't crawl on its belly BEFORE it was cursed?"
Do I understand you correctly in that you feel the God of heaven is literally cursing the physical snake that the spirit creature Satan used as a tool for his deception on Eve, rather than cursing Satan himself?
Hello Pomegranate,
thanks for your quick answer.
Before we gent into "deep waters" let me explain:
*I do believe thet Jehovah cursed - S a t a n, the devil -
*I still find fascinating the point raised and based on
the actual reading of Genesis 3:14 expecially the
second part: "...Upon your belly you will go and dust
is what you will eat all the days of your life."
As I have many versions of the Bible, nbow I'll make a
research on this part, including those Bibles avalaible
online.
Still, it is great to discuss a Bible subjetc.
Agape, J.C. MacHislopp
Hello folks, but this is quite an interesting topic which I need to research further, but generally the feminine personification of wisdom,in particular, is a reference not to Jesus but to Satan.
In this case, it seems quite possible this is a reference to the pre-apostate Satan personified as wisdom. But the critical verse everybody is missing which would suggest this is chapter 7:1-4 where it opens with an address to "my son" stating: "My son, keep my words and treasure my commands within you..." This could be Jehovah speaking to his son, Jesus Christ. But at this point in verse 4 it says: Say to wisdom, "You are my SISTER", and call understanding your nearest kin.
The NEAREST kin possible is a WIFE. As noted elsewhere, the angelic covering cherub who acted as the wife/sister of Jesus was none other than Satan.
So this is probably a reference to Satan as wisdom. Additionally, if Satan were Jesus' wife and the pattern of mankind were based upon this husband and wife as featured in Adam and Eve, with Adam representing Jesus and Eve Satan, as well as the tree of life representing the man, Jesus, and the tree of knowledge (i.e. wisdom), then we have a Biblical confirmation here that Satan was involved to some degree with creation.
This does not contradict scripture but confirms it since when God said: "Let us make mankind in our image...male and female" he would have had to have been talking to a figurative man and "woman" in heaven, that is, both to Jesus and Satan when he said this. So Genesis has always implied that Satan was also involved in some degree with creation, that is, the creation of the earth and the physical universe, and finds himself/herself prominently implied in creation as the "woman".
Of course, other verses following very much would have been related to pre-apostate Satan rather than Jesus.
At any rate, since God is apparently telling his on to let wisdom be his "sister", if we presume this is a reference to God speaking to Jesus then he could not be wisdom. If wisdom here is the pre-apostate Satan, also representing the general nature of wisdom, then we have a complex hidden meaning in scripture that let's us in on Satan's role as the personification of wisdom and it helps us understand the other references.
At any rate, WISDOM, being feminine is far more a personification in scripture to Satan than Jesus and thus it makes sense that wisdom is like a "sister" to the son, in actuality, not simply a close relative, but the closest relative, like a wife. That is why Satan is called "woman" at Genesis 3:15. Jehovah was speaking to Jesus when he said: "I will put enmity between YOU (Jesus) and the woman (Satan) and between your seed and her seed." Thus it would be appropriate to call wisdom the "sister" and close relative of Jesus if, in fact, wisdom personified was pre-apostate Satan.
This is amazing but perfectly in harmony with all other scriptures, particularly those showing Satan as being very beautiful and that beauty being related to his/her great beauty which is associated with elite wisdom.
So until further research, it seems clear to me this is an encrypted reference to pre-apostate Satan as wisdom personified and not Jesus, at the same time, a reference to general wisdom itself.
Thanks for this interesting discussion.
LG
That is why Satan is called "woman" at Genesis 3:15. Jehovah was speaking to Jesus when he said: "I will put enmity between YOU (Jesus) and the woman (Satan) and between your seed and her seed."
You are a very confused man. God was speaking to the "serpent" not to Jesus. The context is very plain.
You wanna tell me why the woman in one understanding isn't Eve herself? Do you think there was some enmity there between Satan and Eve after Eve knew she got duped by the snake? You bet. She hated that serpent...and her seed was eventually to be the Christ, and the enmity would still be there too.
Out of corruption would come the seed of incorruption, Jesus Christ.
You think there was enmity between Christ (Eve's seed) and the Jews? (Satan's seed)?
Well let's see:
Mark 11:18
18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
Luke 19:47
But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him.
John 5:18
18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him;
Oh yeah, we have enmity here, definitely between the two seeds...
Jesus was taunting the Jews the same way Satan was taunting God in heaven...and for good reason. So the Jews would kill him at the appointed time.
Dear Pomegrante,
I totally accept your choice to interpret this verse as you wish. But have settled on my own interpretation here as you have and am comfortble with it. But just let me add some perspective here.
The contest is between "YOU and the WOMAN" and between YOUR SEED and HER SEED. So this suggests two principals and their respective followers being at odds with each other. In Revelation, these two principals are Michael and his angels (his seed) and Satan and his seed (angels), which battle it out together.
Now, you claim that Jehovah was speaking to the serpent. Well that is the specific reference. However, had he not given a specific reference to the serpent first before that reference to the enmity, you could claim that he was speaking specifically to the serpent and not to anyone else. But verse 14 first addresses a specific curse to the serpent about it being cursed and going on it's belly, etc.
This allows for subsequent statements to be implied to others.
In this regard, most persons consider that Jehovah is speaking at least to Satan, who is not mentioned specifically when he says, "he will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel." Furthermore, most persons also seem to think quite clearly that the "seed" of the woman is Jesus Christ. All that to say that lots of people seem to think these statements are not applicable specifically to the serpent, and I agree.
But once you start making these presumptions, then it is a matter of individual interpretation. My point of reference is merely that I believe that Jehovah was indeed speaking to Satan when he said "he will bruise you in the head..." but that Jesus, who is a key player here, was also present, and it was to him that he said: "I'll put enmity between you and the woman...and her seed". If Jehovah is addressing Satan directly by implication, then why not also Jesus? After all, wasn't he involved? Was he there or what?
As far as Satan being the "woman", I've found a basis for that elsewhere but will only comment that Jesus is said to have a wife in the 144,000 Bride Class and since they will be like God's TEMPLE in a holy position, Satan's former position as the unique covering cherb on the Ark of the Covenant, represented by the feminine palm tree figure, in close association with Jesus as the man-bull figure on the curtains could easily be considered this unique and close partnership which the Bible would consider a marriage. Additionally, since God said: "Let us make mankind in our image...male and FEMALE he created them", the presumption here is that he was speaking both with Jesus and Satan at the time, with the things in the earth reflecting the things in heaven, specifically the man and the tree of life reflecting Jesus and the woman and the tree of knowledge reflecting the pre-apostate (woman=Christ's wife) Satan. Then he addressed Adam and Eve directly after that.
This is just my personal understanding which I'm comfortable with scripturally, but I know this is challenging and don't blame you if you can't come along on this. That's fine. But at this point, it's just your interpretation versus my own. Which is correct is for God to decide since "interpretation belongs to God."
Thanks for your opinion.
LG
I believe Wisdom is one of the names of Jesus; but notice however, that Wisdom in the proverbs is referred to in the feminine.
