4 sincere questions for those that believe there is a God

by S EIGHT 89 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mP

  God' isn't the source of laws about not murdering people.

  TEC:

  God IS love... and love is the source of such laws.

  Love of course existed long before laws that stem from love were ever written down, for people who did not have those laws written upon their hearts.

  mP:

  Do you really think that people in Australia, Africa, the Americas and Pacific didnt have laws against murder. How do you explain there are so many Chinese even back then ? if they didnt know jehovah they should have murdered each other out of existance.

  And yet with gods chosen ones , we see the exact opposite, a small nation remains small and weak while others without god grow strong and great.

  How do you explain what i just said ?
• 

  mP

  TEC

  Well... the 'god of the bible'... is not necessarily the God and Father of Christ.

  mP:

  Then why is Jesus constantly quoting the OT and saying it doesnt need to be changed in Mat 5 and other places ? Why did he lie to us ?
• 

  mP

  tec

  I know how, and have shared that many times..

  mP;

  How exactly do you know the real against the fake scriptures ? You basically just pick wihch ones you like and ignore the problematic ones.
• 

  Jeffro

  tec:

  God IS love...
  and love is the source of such laws. Love of course existed long before laws that stem from love were ever written down, for people who did not have those laws written upon their hearts.
  Some people, Jeffro, just dont' have it in them to cause harm to another person... regardless of any benefits or disruption of trust. That person has the law (of love) written on their hearts, manifested in what they do.

  Well... the 'god of the bible'... is not necessarily the God and Father of Christ.
  I mean... since you would have quite the contradiction between the parts that you are saying instruct people to murder... and the parts that speak against that; instructing one to love even one's enemies, to not pay back wrong for wrong; to not even be angry with one's brother.
  How do you know which is an accurate representation?
  I know how, and have shared that many times... but I am curious how some of you claim to know.

  Quite the logician as usual. (That's sarcasm by the way.)

  I think I need to write a script that automatically responds to tec with some kind of 'facepalm'.
• 

  hpxg838

  S S EIGHT:

  First a little background, I was born and raised a JW and after years of not being able to get satisfactory answers to my questions and observing the society waffle back and forth on numerous issues as it was convenient for them I opted out and decided to become “non-religious”. However we all have the “need” you mentioned so after some years and through a series of circumstances I decided to see for myself if what the society had taught us about Christendom was true. I found that on many issues it was not and on some issues it was, however, the church I attended came much closer to filling my “spiritual need” than the society ever had. I was a jealous “Christian” for over 12 years even becoming a lay pastor in my church, roughly the equivalent of a ministerial servant, taught Sunday school and participated in many church activities. But, there were still too many unanswered questions and most of them were like the ones you raise here. Specifically, why aren’t prayers answered, and I firmly believe they aren’t, at least not in my about 40 years of praying, both as a JW and a Christian, none of mine ever were. I also begin to have questions like yours about why and how a “good and loving” god could allow the bad things we see around us every day. I remember being told one time that we Christians give satan too much credit. But after giving it much thought my response to that was, “his presence is obvious everywhere I look, but no matter how hard I look I don’t see Jehovah or God or Christ or the Almighty or whatever your preference is anywhere…. except it’s pretty obvious that some great being or power created everything. Evolution just doesn’t add up or make sense to me. Thus my conundrum, something must be responsible for our being here, but it doesn’t seem to be the god of the bible, too many contradictions in what we’ve been taught and what we see reality to be. So, I continued to ponder this and I have come up with a theory that works for me, it goes like this:

  The creature we know as Satan is actually the creator and therefore god. However he is not the good and loving god of the bible. That god only exists as a figment of the creator’s imagination, a fabrication or tool to use to play with us. Unlike the god of the bible, he created us merely for his amusement, and to amuse himself he created this fictitious Jehovah to use to toy with us. When he created us he also built in our need for this god to exist and he takes great pleasure in giving us a need that can never be filled since its fulfillment is a figment of his imagination. That would mean that he is also the author of the bible as that is just another tool in his tool box of human torture. So is the concept of faith. Think about, with every legitimate question that is raised that “they” can’t answer, eventually the answer comes back to, “you just have to believe or have faith.” I also believe that he tips his hand in the bible, knowing that most people won’t catch it. I refer to 2Cor. 11:13-15 where he admits that he turns himself into an angle of light. There’s another interesting scripture that I believe satan put in the bible as a clue, Matt. 7:22-23. If we look at that scripture we notice that these people sincerely believe they have done god’s will and even performed miracles thru the power of the HS. How could this be true? Simple if you apply my theory. If satan is god he certainly has the power to send his unholy spirit to perform miracles. Since there is no Jesus or the Father who is in heaven then there will be no end time judgment, so it’s all just a tease and a lie from satan. Having accepted this theory and applying it regularly to the things I see happening in the world I believe I’m on the right track with this. Now no one has to agree with me, I’m not asking you to, I’m just sharing my thoughts and observations. If you don’t agree, and I’m sure many of you won’t, please don’t try to debate me. It’s not a matter for debate because it’s my opinion, my theory and as such it’s neither right nor wrong. I’m not asking anyone to accept or adopt it, therefore no debate is necessary. I’ve begun the process of combing thru my years of bible training and revisiting scriptures to see what other clues I can find. I am also now asking the next question which is; “does the bible hold clues as to what satan’s end time plans are?” I have no idea at this point, and I’m in no hurry to find the answer as it’s taken me my whole life to get this far, but it is a question I’m pondering.

  I’ve also often wondered why there are so many religions and again my theory answers that question.

  I remember the very first question that started me down this path almost 50 years ago. Every Monday night my parents studied with me out of the original Paradise book, the orange one. When we got to the lesson on satan rebelling and being thrown out of heaven, being the smart and inquisitive lad that I was, I asked my dad this very simple question, “If God is almighty, instead of kicking satan out of heaven, why didn’t he just destroy him right then and there?” As I said, it’s been almost 50 years since I first asked that question and I have yet to get a satisfactory answer. Here was my reason for the question, God should have the power to destroy satan before he has a chance to screw things up, God is supposed to be omniscient so he knew what would happen if he sat by and let satan do his thing. How is that the action of a just and loving God? And when you bring up the topic of omniscience one has to ask the question, how is it the god didn’t know ahead of time what satan was going to do and what Adam and Eve, etc would do? The more questions you ask, there are more questions that follow. However, with my theory, all of the questions can be answered, at least to my satisfaction.

  Anyway, just a bunch of thoughts and a theory from a guy who’s spent the last 50 or so years trying to find answers.
• 

  Fernando

  Very well set up reasoning and questions S EIGHT.

  I too am troubled by situations such as this and of which there are many.

  I don't presume to have the answer, maybe just an observation in the form of a statement of fact and a question.

  Fact:

  Most humans show little interest in God's macro solution for all that ails human society. This solution comes in the form of a detailed message hidden in plain sight in Judeo-Christian-Muslim scripture. It is a detailed map with at least 30 key markers. It is a composite medicine with at least 30 ingredients. It is known as the unabridged gospel/bissar/injeel/injil to Christians, Jews and Muslims (more than half the earth's population). This message involves a complex and protracted legal custody battle between our evil step-father (the god of religion) and our heavenly father (the God of Abraham who was neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Muslim).

  Question:

  Is it reasonable for me to take issue with God's non-intervention when I and most others are ignoring his macro-solution, and have no insight into its detailed and transcendent mechanics?

  ---

  (Why does the "true religion" secretly blind its followers to the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)

  (Why do followers of the Watchtower religion call themselves “publishers of the Good News” whilst unfamiliar with the “Good News” according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)
• 

  tec

  Tec - it's impossible to have a real debate with you. Or rather its impossible to win in the debate. Because you just say that the particular bible verse is wrong or not true. When Jesus speaks to you, and we can't hear what he is telling you, well you get the point. Lets just say that if I was going to be religious it would have to be your sort of it I think. Because the stuff in the bible is just outright contradictory and horrible.

  Well, I'm not particularly trying to debate.

  I could, however, have a discussion with you using the bible... but the result is the same, in that even just within what is written... what Christ is written to have said takes precedence over anything else... becasue again, Christ is the Truth, and Christ is the one who God has told us to listen to... as well as the one the prophets and Moses pointed us toward.

  And while you might not be able to overhear what Christ speaks to ME, you CAN go and ask him, yourself, putting faith IN Him, that He is alive, does speak, and will open the door if you are knocking.

  (If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My father will love him, and we will come and make our home with him)

  But, I prefer to at this point remain adverse to religion.

  You will get zero objection from me on that point.

  I am 'adverse' to religion as well.

  My Lord did not come to begin a religion. He came to give life... He said that the kind of worshippers the Father wants are those who worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.

  Faith in the Spirit.

  Not religion, which is faith in what is seen; and in something that men have made.

  If god exists and he is loving then I hope he would value a life lived to the full and a person who tried to be good.

  "He who is not against you, is for you."

  We also know that there are those who are invited into the Kingdom who are other than the brothers and bride of Christ.

  There are those who "did good to even the least of these brothers of mine." (from the sheep and the goats parable Matt 25: 31-46)

  There is also this:

  "By the measure you use, it will be used against you."

  Don't show mercy? Don't think it will be shown toward you. Do show mercy; then you will be SHOWN mercy. Same with love, forgiveness, etc.

  I just can't believe though personally.

  Okay. Perhaps one day you will, and perhaps not.

  The call to "Come" (to Christ and the life that He gives) is simply open to anyone who hears and wishes and thirsts.

  Science disproves to much.

  Science does not disprove God or Christ or the spiritual. It cannot.

  It simply does not (yet) prove them.

  But science is about learning the world/universe around us. And if there is one thing that science HAS taught us... it never stops discovering more. Nothing is complete, because at any time, something new can be discovered that will either ADD to previous understanding (making it fuller)... or even reverse a previous understanding that was wrong.

  Science and God are NOT in conflict though. Our understandings of one or both can be in conflict, because we don't have the full or correct knowledge of one or both.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Do you really think that people in Australia, Africa, the Americas and Pacific didnt have laws against murder. How do you explain there are so many Chinese even back then ? if they didnt know jehovah they should have murdered each other out of existance.

  I am afraid I cannot follow your reasoning.

  Love was a law before it was ever written down for the Israelites.... as were all 'laws' that stem from love. Regardless of what civilization knew them or not.

  And yet with gods chosen ones , we see the exact opposite, a small nation remains small and weak while others without god grow strong and great.

  Numbers don't really mean anything... but I am again uncertain about what you are saying here; what connection you are making.

  How do you explain what i just said ?

  I think you need to explain to me what you just said a little more first ; )

  Well... the 'god of the bible'... is not necessarily the God and Father of Christ. ... tec

  Then why is Jesus constantly quoting the OT ... mP

  Chirst quotes portions of the OT in relation to what He is teaching.

  That does not mean the entire thing accurately represents God. Else why would we have needed Christ - the TRUTH - to come and teach us? Why would CHRIST be called the WORD of God, and the IMAGE of God?

  and saying it doesnt need to be changed in Mat 5 and other places ?

  Matthew 5 speaks a lot about what the people heard... and then corrects those things.

  I assume you are speaking only of the beginning... that he did not come to abolish the law or prophets, but to fulfill them. Well, we have had discussions in great length on this subject already. You can just refer to those.

  So do you have a specific example where Christ says that abotu the OT?

  Because He corrects things that are written, and also says 'woe to you scribes'... which is also backed in the OT, in Jeremiah 8:8... about how the lying pen of the scribes has handled the law falsely.

  Becasue of things like that, mP... we have Christ to teach us; Christ as the TRUTH, and Christ to listen TO, in order to know and see God.

  Why did he lie to us ?... mP

  He didn't.

  How exactly do you know the real against the fake scriptures ? You basically just pick wihch ones you like and ignore the problematic ones.

  Once again... no.

  I listen to Christ. Since HE is the Truth, the one God said to listen to. HE is the Life, the Image, and the Word fo God.

  I listen to Him... and if something is against Him, then it is NOT the truth.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  Tammy - please try to say something original, please!

  Go to chrISt, listen TO the voices, lyinG SCRibes, no religion too, go to hiM, i lOVe scIENCE (even though I contradict everything it says) blah blah blah
• 

  tec

  LOL... I could say the same to some of you and the arguments you present. If those changed, then so would the responses ; )

  Peace,

  tammy

  (voice, not voices)