Personally I spend far less time thinking faithfully (maintaining a relationship with reality based on trust in a concept that is at odds with the observed physical world) which means my intellect can roam and explore reality without having to pretend it all has to conform with a supernatural , invisible world. My thoughts are my own and I have put aside the self induced insanity of making up alter egos for my internal dialogues. My experience of reality is much more authentic now that the religious theatre is finished and the costume of piety and reverance is removed. Am I cleverer now, no, just a little bit less gullible and better able to think clearly.
IQ and Theism
by DJS 29 Replies latest jw friends
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ILoveTTATT
I see the pattern. I think that there is an inverse relationship between IQ and Theism. Higher IQ = less theism. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, but I think it is a fair statement for "normal" religions. For cults, it doesn't matter how high your IQ is, once they get you, it's hard to get out!
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FlyingHighNow
I have known some not so bright atheists, too. My first mother-in-law was an atheist on most days. One of those, "When you die, you're dead, that's it." kind of people. I'd guess her IQ as low end of average. She was a streetwise, Chicago born and raised tough girl. Her parents were Italian immigrants who raised her as Roman Catholic. They owned a restaurant/bar/home combo. Her mother died when she was 3. She then had an Italian immigrant, very strict, Roman Catholic stepmother and her father passed away when she was 12. She bucked against that 1950's, conservative Italian, Catholic strictness. She would run away from home and be taken to reform school. She was once stabbed in the back, literally, while at reform school. No one would have ever called her an intellectual. She used to say to me that she couldn't understand all those big words I used. I have a good, but not superior vocabulary. I loved her, but she was kind of a bigot: Archie Bunker style.
On the other hand you can have deists and theists who are very intelligent and well educated. I think that atheism and theism have little to do with IQ or level of education. It is Marlene, my grandson Julian and others along the way who have told me, "I just don't feel anything up there. I don't sense anything past this life." I've come to the conclusion that people either sense something up there, out there or they don't. The ones who don't will be either atheist or agnostic. The ones who do will be deists or theists or describe themselves as spiritual.
My dad had an incredibly high IQ. He was an inventor. He was an oceanographer. He had a belief which incorporated a lot of his native American heritage and spirituality. His best friend was a geologist, that was similar to dad. They were both evolutionists who had deep, spiritual discussions while they played chess. They talked about evolution intertwined with spirituality and the wonders of the universe. (No one, including Dad, could beat Jim at chess.)
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FlyingHighNow
As an addendum to my last comment: a pondering. What leads anyone to the conclusions that there is a god or there isn't a god? Is it the level of intelligence? Is it the field of science that has been studied or not studied? Is it the upbringing? Experiences in one's life? Is it choosing a spiritual career or one in the field of science? Is it being an intellectual? Is it choosing to approach life more at the basic, aesthetic level? Has it to do with education or ignorance?
Since such a big percentage of those who have careers in the field of science are either spiritual or are diests or thiests, it is obviously not knowledge of science that leads to atheism. Since atheists come in IQs that scatter across the spectrum and theists, deists, and spiritualists follow suit, it has little to do with level of intelligence. Someone just pointed out that people of all levels of intelligence can be sucked into a cult. I've heard of the theory of the God Gene. If deep, critical, logical, even scientific thinking leads to both polar opposite conclusions and some points in between, then maybe atheism/theism has more to do with whether you feel something up there or you don't. Maybe it has to do with that possible God Gene.
The spirit of Jeff T's comment on ST's thread about Fundamentalism someday being treated as a mental illness--the concept of it can apply to the subject of this thread:
I can't tell the difference between a fundamentalist who says that secularists are mentally diseased, and a secularist who says that
fundamentalists are mentally diseased. Both of them want everybody to think the same way they do... JeffT
Human beings are a diverse bunch. I enjoy the diversity. If we were all the same, life would have much less color.
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skeeter1
I find this article to have a ring of truth to it.
When i was in elementary school, I was tested by school psychologists who determined I was gifted. My parents were shown my IQ, but never told me and now, "don't remember" what it was. My parents encouraged me to make great grades, study, and go to college. In fact, both of them went to college after 1975. They were in their 40's. We didn't go to the Kingdom Hall.
So, the time comes for high school. I am in all advanced/ap classes, and bump into a JW on the school bus. She witnesses to me, and I start going back to the Kingdom Hall. Eventually, my mother started coming too. I could read a paragraph and answer the questions presented from the evidence in the paragraph, but I was really just nodding my head.
Then, between the 10th and 11th grade, I went to a convention in Tampa/St. Pete. Had to been 1984. A young woman got on stage and told of the horrors she experienced going to college. She quit college, to go back to Jah and be a full-time pioneer. Everyone applauded. But, I puked. I told my mother that I didn't agree with the Witnesses for putting this girl up on the stage and I didn't agree with what she said. I was for learning. Then, just about the same time, the mother of the school bus girl told me "off" in the Kingdom Hall for taking advanced and ap classes. This was proof that I didn't believe that the "Generation of 1914" would not pass away. So, I told my mother, who said that I was going to college, would have to 'live at home' and to not tell anyone else of my plans.
Then, the 11th grade hit. I had advanced chemistry and trig. We were the geeks of the school. Everyone became very logical and depended on proofs of reality. And, I started to see the WTS was stringing along a bunch of Bible verses. The WTS calculation of 1914 was just "too complicated" for the average man to figure out, so why would Jehovah the True God make it so crazy of a calculation if everyone's life depended on it? So, I started attending less & less. My hours in service hit ZERO. But, my idols became my math and science teachers. I liked them more then my parents, other JWs, everyone.
About the 12th grade, and an elder took me aside to ask if I was serious about the Truth and concerned about my not putting in 10 hours a month in service. I told him that I didn't believe in the WTS calculation of 1914; and that I wanted to go to college. The elder said that college was not a good idea. This elder was a doctor, and I reminded him of that. He then said that he'd have to make an announcement at the next meeting that I was no longer a publisher. I looked him straight in the eye and said, if I remember right, "Well, you do whatever it is that you need to do. It doesn't affect me at all as I have made my decision." This conversation was about 3 minutes. No other elder was there, that I remember. I didn't attend the next meeting. I was also working at a job, and was already scheduled to work.
That school bus girl got married to a JW. Before she unfriended me on Facebook (which was a short 2 hour friendship), she wrote alot about going to the conventions. You know, all that goody-too-shoes bullshit appearance stuff. She wasn't a dumb girl, but in the regular classes.
Of our high school graduating class, I was the only one in the advanced group. The ones in the regular group are still in, I believe. One in a lower grade got out, thankfully. She wasn't in the high performing group, but her life choices made the JWs not fit.
Skeeter
p.s. While I'm supposedly "gifted", doesn't mean that I am street smart or spell/write the greatest. Here, there is no spell check. And, if the door said "Pull", I'd probably "Push". Send me to the store to buy Coke and I'll return with Diet Pepsi. Get what I mean?
p.s.s. In about 2002, my parents were elderly and tried to reconvert me to JW after the birth of our first child. Know what their opening line was? The WTS now ok's college. I said that was great, but not enough to convince me to go back. Then, they slipped up and said that 1914 was "Old light." To which, I couldn't stop laughing. It was so funny. They were straigh faced, that this "New Light" was going to get me back into the Truth. I laughed and laughed. When I finaly came to, I said something, "But, look at how many lives were hampered? Look at all my friends that didn't go to college becuase they had to believe in 1914. So, now the WTS strings together some new scriptures and I'm supposed to go to it?" So, then my parents sent out sisters, brothers, elders to our door. I politely told the first two groups, "No." The, I had to tell the third group, "Hell NO, Did my parents set you up to do this? Stop. Stop. Stop." They never came back. :-)
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adamah
FHN said-
What leads anyone to the conclusions that there is a god or there isn't a god? Is it the level of intelligence? Is it the field of science that has been studied or not studied? Is it the upbringing? Experiences in one's life? Is it choosing a spiritual career or one in the field of science? Is it being an intellectual? Is it choosing to approach life more at the basic, aesthetic level? Has it to do with education or ignorance?
Couple of points to add:
I feel that someone should be able to EXPLAIN WHY they believe what they do, whether a theist or atheist.
The theists' old attack against atheists is that they don't want there to be a God just so they can sin. As much as I think it's a silly claim, the fact is that there is SOME percentage of those that call themselves atheists who ARE actually quite uninformed of what atheism is, and cannot explain their way out of a wet paper bag; so it MAY be true for some.
HOWEVER, the same idea applies to those who choose to call themselves theists, i.e. they need to explain WHY they believe what they do, and it should be premised on more than just their personally WANTING a God to exist, just like the atheist who DOESN'T want God to exist (if wishes and buts were candies and nuts....). Unfortunately for us all, 'reality' couldn't give a flip what we WANT it to be: it just IS. God cannot be willed into, or out of, existence: He either IS, or He isn't.
I've known highly-educated people who were theists, but the thing to remember is that belief is not ONLY about logic and rationality, but the emotional and societal elements in play. Many of these smart people who profess belief are active in their church organizational hierarchy, and professing a belief in the group's theology is required for admission into the power structure, as an article of faith.
eg there's highly-educated Mormons who prescribe glasses all day long, and seemingly have no problem with the account of Joseph Smith wearing rocks mounted in spectacle frames which enabled him to interpret Egyptian texts! I know of a successful Jewish cardiologist who does the same thing, shifting between contradictory belief systems as easily as someone changes hats.
It's called "compartmentalization of beliefs", where people adopt one set of logic and principles during their work week, but then shifts gears into theological beliefs on Sunday, all done simply to avoid cognitive dissonance (or to obtain some non-theological practical benefit). Not everyone values truths above everything else, and that's likely why the "no discussions of politics or religion" social more exists: it's considered rude to assume everyone shares the same values you do, and to challenge them on their beliefs is hence taken as rude, insulting behavior.
(BTW, the same rules don't apply on a religious discussion forum like this, since that's the VERY REASON for its existence: to discuss different beliefs, including the rejection of beliefs.)
There's a societal bias against those who profess atheism, which is the reason no politician is able to publicly admit to being an atheist, and must profess any belief, since they know that believers would NOT vote for them if they 'came out' and admitted to being an atheist/agnostic. Hence all such studies of beliefs are inherently flawed, unless absolute confidentiality is assured.
Adam
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FlyingHighNow
I believe an atheist or thiest feels what they feel. If an atheist doesn't feel something up there, out there, you can't make him or her feel it. I don't expect anyone to explain why they do or don't believe or feel. It's a personal experience or view, individual and varied as human beings are varied. I'm not going to second guess anyone's personal feelings and conclusions. I don't believe the conclusion that there is a god or gods is superior to the conclusion that there isn't one or many. The only problems I see are when intolerance, pressure or control comes into the picture, from either atheists or theists.
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MrFreeze
Many top scientists do not consider themselves atheist. Although I'd say most do consider themselves agnostic.
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LogCon
In 1932 55% of the scientists in Germany thought Hitler was the right man to lead the country. In 1940 100% of the scientist thought Hitler was the right man.
These scientists sure got smart in a hurry.
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LisaRose
I think IQ is a factor, but it's not the whole picture. The ability to make a rational decision for either belief or non belief also involves personality characteristics. Those who are more prone to question the status quo, which have learned critical thinking skills and who are confident in their beliefs are more likely to be Athiests, in my opinion.