by smiddy 268 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Latinthunder, why do you think that Hebrews 4:12 is referring to scripture?
The "voice" of the Word of God was written down which is what's being referred to. I look at the scripture as similar to the adage "the pen is mightier than the sword." My point being that it's not a heresy to call scripture the word of God as Paul did. For example if I tell you something and you write it down you can call it "the word of latinthunder" without it being my literal voice.
The "voice" of the word was written down which is what's being referred to.
How do you know that? What makes you think that is what Paul is referering to here (if it is Paul)?
I look at the scripture as similar to the adage "the pen is mightier than the sword."
Okay.
My point being that it's not a heresy to call scripture the word of God as Paul did.
No, its not heresy... but it is wrong if you are referring to scripture as the Word of God, in place of Christ... the LIVING Word of God. Living as in He IS alive, here and now.
One may of course write down the word that God has spoken... I hear what you are saying; though today, He speaks through His Son... hence, the LIVING Word of God. But when a person begins to look at the bible as the image, word, and truth of God... INSTEAD of at Christ, who is all of these things... they are raising something else up OVER Christ.
But Christ is the ONLY Image we are given; and Christ Himself stated, even in that book, that to know HIM, is to know God. No other means was given.
Peace,
tammy
How do you know that? What makes you think that is what Paul is referering to here (if it is Paul)?
I think whoever wrote it was a Jew and a well studied one at that who understood the true spiritual authorship of Jewish scripture. He describes how one might identify scripture from non scripture. If it doesn't "go the bones", it's not from the Logos and therefore NOT scripture.
One may of course write down the word that God has spoken... I hear what you are saying; though today, He speaks through His Son... hence, the LIVING Word of God. But when a person begins to look at the bible as the image, word, and truth of God... INSTEAD of at Christ, who is all of these things... they are raising something else up OVER Christ.
It would be hard to find a professed Christian who'd admit they put the Bible over Christ. All would likely say they believe the opposite. How do you know when someone is putting scripture over Christ?
I think whoever wrote it was a Jew and a well studied one at that who understood the true spiritual authorship of Jewish scripture. He describes how one might identify scripture from non scripture. If it doesn't "go the bones", it's not from the Logos and therefore NOT scripture.
If one does not also hear it in the spirit (go to the bones)... I understand that. But then, one is really listening to the Spirit, right... as the Spirit is confirming that what was written is true and was from God?
I'm still not sure what about that passage makes you believe he is speaking about scripture here though.
It would be hard to find a professed Christian who'd admit they put the Bible over Christ. All would likely say they believe the opposite. How do you know when someone is putting scripture over Christ?
Admit it out of the blue.. yes, lol, that would be hard. But when pressed... when asked, would you believe what you HEAR from the spirit, over what is written... then it would not be so hard to find one. It is definitely not hard to find one who would say that they would listen to the Spirit, if the Spirit spoke against their particular religious teachings (denomination, etc) Like jws for instance, who believe their religion when it says that only the 144000 may partake, or their teachings on reinstatement policies, or obeying the letter of the law at the expense of love, etc. Other denominations do some of these as well... or have in the past.
You know when someone is putting scipture over Christ when they have to at least ignore what Christ is written to have said, to believe something else (some other interpretation). When something that they teach does not adhere to at least what Christ taught, and/or love.
Like for instance... someone stating that we should disfellowship people and shun them. Is that person listening to Christ... or something written OVER what Christ, Himself, taught... and teaches?
Peace,
tammy
I'm still not sure what about that passage makes you believe he is speaking about scripture here though.
It's not a belief, it's a natural conclusion of the text. He is speaking about scripture as told by the author: the Word (Logos). The writer is describing the human experience when engaging with scripture and therefore the Logos. It will FEEL like it cuts to your soul and judges your actions. Similar to someone having an epiphany after watching a play, reading a book or a viewing a film. Something as simple as a poem or a song can "pierce the soul" and cause someone to feel strong life altering emotions. This is the experience that the writer is intending to portray, that is the "voice" of the Spirit.
as the Spirit is confirming that what was written is true and was from God?
That's just the thing, the writer is giving the instructions on how to test it in the scripture. If it doesn't change your life from the inside out for the better, then it's not from the Logos. True Scripture moves people into positve action and life progress, false scripture leads them into confusion and life destruction. That's why the Book of Revelation ends with a warning not to tamper with it's written word. Any alteration would lead the readers to destruction (plagues) rather than revelation.
It's not a belief, it's a natural conclusion of the text. He is speaking about scripture as told by the author: the Word (Logos).
What in the text supports this conclusion that you have drawn? That is what I am asking.
The writer is describing the human experience when engaging with scripture and therefore the Logos.
Same question as above please.
Because one does not HAVE to be reading scripture to hear the Word of God.
Peace,
tammy
To add to the above... not everyone who reads, feels anything down to their bones. Not everyone is changed by reading the bible; even scripture in the bible.
What you seem to be describing is faith (and works)... where faith without works is dead. If your faith does not change you... or compel you to works (the works and love that Christ taught)... then you might want to reconsider whether or not you truly have faith and are learning from Christ, the Spirit.
Peace,
tammy
What in the text supports this conclusion that you have drawn? That is what I am asking.
The Greek word "logos" means "reasoning expressed by words" and words are meant to be written down. The writer is instructing the reader as to the nature of holy scripture, which must have the characteristic of piercing the soul of man and judging his actions. Paul was referring to the written word at the time: Jewish Scripture as he quotes King David's work in Psalms. How do you think David received the words he wrote down? Was he aware that God was speaking through him as the writer suggests in Hebrews 4:7? Was Paul aware that he was writing scripture?
then you might want to reconsider whether or not you truly have faith and are learning from Christ, the Spirit.
Christ is not the Spirit. If he were then Matthew 19 would say to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son/Spirit only. Rather, it says to baptize in the name of all three, not two.
Not everyone is changed by reading the bible; even scripture in the bible.
That's why King David said " Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Scripture is counsel and a human in a state of pride (a hardened heart) will not heed the counsel. It would be like going to a professional counselor, but then not taking their advice. The words were written down to be applied. That's how you test scripture, by applying them in your life and observing the results. You can even watch others apply and observe their results. The confimration is attained by trial and error, like everything else. Paul claimed that scripture, no matter how old, will always retain value for " teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness ." If someone doesn't get any value out of Christian and Jewish Scripture, they haven't applied the word correctly.
The Greek word "logos" means "reasoning expressed by words" and words are meant to be written down. The writer is instructing the reader as to the nature of holy scripture, which must have the characteristic of piercing the soul of man and judging his actions. Paul was referring to the written word at the time: Jewish Scripture as he quotes King David's work in Psalms. How do you think David received the words he wrote down? Was he aware that God was speaking through him as the writer suggests in Hebrews 4:7? Was Paul aware that he was writing scripture.
Not all words are meant to be written down.
But you are still not understanding what I am asking. What in the text here in Hebrews, leading up to this verse, leads you to believe that the author is speaking about scripture? Can you quote from the text what leads you to that conclusion? That is all I am asking you.
I suppose in addition to that, I might ask you what you think the difference is between Christ (the WORD of God), and what is written.
David recieved the words he wrote from the Spirit. I believe he was aware, yes... but I do not believe that Paul considered that his personal letters to congregations were meant as scripture. Certainly not all of what is contained in them IS scripture, since he, himself, states in one place that something is from God... and something else is from him, but he THINKS he understands it correctly, as from the Spirit.
Christ is not the Spirit. If he were then Matthew 19 would say to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son/Spirit only. Rather, it says to baptize in the name of all three, not two.
Paul himself calls Christ the Spirit. 2Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (There are also only two names. The Father has a name; the Son has a name; the Spirit, if He is a third entity, does not have a name. But He does if He is Christ.)
That's why King David said " Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Scripture is counsel and a human in a state of pride (a hardened heart) will not heed the counsel. It would be like going to a professional counselor, but then not taking their advice. The words were written down to be applied. That's how you test scripture, by applying them in your life and observing the results. You can even watch others apply and observe their results. The confimration is attained by trial and error, like everything else. Paul claimed that scripture, no matter how old, will always retain value for " teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness ." If someone doesn't get any value out of Christian and Jewish Scripture, they haven't applied the word correctly.
First... yes... if you HEAR his voice. In faith, in spirit. Do not harden your heart against Him or what you hear from Him. Some do... because they are listening to another voice. Such as the voice of their own religious leaders. When His voice conflicts with theirs, some/many will listen to their voice, and their voice will be how they see the sciptures (according to their religious leaders' interpretations).
Some may hear the truth in something that is written, yes, because of the spirit within them, confirming or teaching them,helping them to see.
You can, however, test scipture simply by asking Christ and listening to what the Spirit teaches (the spirit will lead you into all truth)... and against love... and against what CHRIST is written to have said. Because Christ is the Truth.
I am not saying that there is no value in what is written; indeed it may point TO Christ, and teach ABOUT Christ. A witness. (or rather, many witnesses) Only that what is written is not what we are told to turn or listen to... that is CHRIST. The bible is not the Word, Image, and Truth of God... God sent His Word, Image, and Truth in a man, who is now Spirit (the man was Truth; the Spirit is Truth): Christ.
We are to listen to Him. No one and nothing else OVER Him.
Peace, tammy
Not all words are meant to be written down.
...just the ones you want to remember.
But you are still not understanding what I am asking. What in the text here in Hebrews, leading up to this verse, leads you to believe that the author is speaking about scripture? Can you quote from the text what leads you to that conclusion? That is all I am asking you.
I am having trouble understanding your confusion. It's quite simple, really. The Word in John 1:1 is the source of the word mentioned in Hebrews 4:12. Just as the Word was the source of David's words in Psalms. The Word is the source of scripture. The writer of Hebrews knew this and was describing the final result, which is scripture.
David recieved the words he wrote from the Spirit.
In what way, though?
There are also only two names. The Father has a name; the Son has a name; the Spirit, if He is a third entity, does not have a name. But He does if He is Christ.
"The Spirit" IS a name. Regardless, there is actually only ONE divine name, the Highest Name which was given to Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:8-11).
Paul himself calls Christ the Spirit.
Yes, Yahweh = Christ = The Spirit all are coequal, coeternal and separate persons.
You can, however, test scipture simply by asking Christ and listening to what the Spirit teaches (the spirit will lead you into all truth)... and against love... and against what CHRIST is written to have said. Because Christ is the Truth.
Exactly, the Spirit will LEAD you to truth as wind does a ship at sea. It directs you to safety.
We are to listen to Him. No one and nothing else OVER Him.
Even if his words don't make sense from a human standpoint? ;)
