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After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?
by smiddy 268 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Django_Unchained
@adamah:
(I wonder if someone were to dig up Tolkien's 'The Hobbit' 2,000 yrs from now after some natural cataclysmic event wiped out 99.9% of the Earth's population, and conclude there were tiny creatures who walked the Earth by taking it as a literal history instead of seeing it as a fictional work, or even set up a religion awaiting the return of the Messiah Bilbo, praying to him to return to redress the current "evils" they experience in their lives.)
i prefer the universal truisms of aesop's fables to my book of horror stories. :)
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adamah
i prefer the universal truisms of aesop's fables to my book of horror stories. :)
Yes, but the 'fly in the ointment' of ALL advice ("universal truisms"), whether the Bible or Aesop's Fables, is that they all require applying one's OWN wisdom to know which situations to which they APPLY, since many are downright contradictory.
eg is it better to follow:
- Look before you leap?
OR
- He who hesitates is lost?
Obviously both are questionable, since they both attempt to be short perfunctory and curt, when a more proper answer would be somewhere inbetween. However, expressing complex ideas usually requires more than short cliched expressions.
Adam
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Cold Steel
mP, I have no interest in debating you, because you ignore my responses, then later make outlandish claims as to what was said. You know what I think about your arguments that show that 70 cannot become 3 million in 200 years? Nothing. I have no opinion, that’s why I didn’t give one. It doesn’t seem to bother biblical scholars or historians, so I don’t care. It’s not a deal breaker for me. You also accuse me of citing “scriptures and claim[ing] they are talking about Jesus when his name or title are never mentioned.”
You’re speaking, no doubt, of my citation of Isaiah 53 and the last part of chapter 52. This scripture is universally acknowledged by Christian scholars as referring to Jesus, and I wholeheartedly agree. Prophecy is such that one must study it in the context of the prophets themselves. Trying to seriously discuss it with someone who doesn’t even know the basics of prophecy and scriptural exegesis is like discussing astrophysics with a six-year old.
mP: Good too see you do not attempt to quote or link or anything because if anybody reads the text its clear you are lying and wrong. You delibrately only present the first half of the paragraph because the entire chapter is about Jesus the son of Damneus who was a real person according to Josephus. Anyone can read the entire chapter, and see for themselves the Jesus mentioned is never Jesus son of god, and it makes no sense to talk and use his first name with qualification to refer to one character and then slip in a line about Jesus of Nazareth without letting the reader know its a different person. [Emphasis mine.]
Well, this is a wonderful example, on a platter, of what you frequently do. In our discussion on Josephus, you said, and I quote:
“The Testimonium Flavianum is not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”
Actually, it’s entirely about the Jesus of the Bible. But since you have openly accused me of lying, which I’ve never accused you or anyone else on this board of, here, in full, is the Testimonium Vlavianum:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.
Now how you can say this isn’t about the Jesus of the Bible is beyond me. Even if one believes it was muddled with, well, let’s look at the Arabic version, which is deemed more accurate:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.
In short, I’m not going to waste my time going back to previous discussions and showing you to be full of hooey. You think coming in and making accusations will save your complete lack of scholarship. Since I’m assuming you’re probably still in high school, I’ll give you a few tips. First, admit it when you’re wrong, check and recheck your sources, and never resort to name calling as a primary means of defense. In fact, never use it, period, if you can help it.
Smiddy: ...performing so-called miracles is not and should not be the criteria for believing in GOD, didn’t the magic practicing priests of Egypt also perform miracles? Exodus 7...according to the bible that is.
DeWandelaar: have you personally seen him do the miracles? Have you seen him waking the dead? No...it is “history” according to you but “history” is written by people with an agenda.
Well, that’s the issue now, isn’t it? Miracles should NEVER be used as a means of determining the truthfulness of any person or group. On the other hand, the gifts of the Spirit follow them that believe.
I can’t prove the miracles that occurred in our church history any more than we Christians of today can prove the miracles in the days of Christ. But when Muhammad had his visions, and when other messianic claimants other than Jesus had their mystical experiences, how many witnesses were there? None. When Joan of Arc had her visions and heard her voices, how many could testify of it? Zip. And when Ellen G. White had her visions and experiences, how many witnesses could back her claims? Again, zero.
How about Jesus? Well, his apostles saw his miracles and later attested to them. John the Baptist testified of his messiahship, and Peter, James and John saw him on the mount of transfiguration. The apostles testified of Jesus’ death and resurrection and they also witnessed whatever it was Jesus said and did during the 40 days following the resurrection, when he taught them.
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, many witnessed the miracles done in those early days. Each time a major event happened, whether it was the restoration of the two priesthoods or the reception of the vision of the degrees of glory, at least one other person was present who could testify of it. The Book of Mormon plates were seen by three witnesses in addition to Smith. These men saw the gold plates, the sword of Laban, the interpreters and the angel. Additionally, they heard the voice of God bearing witness that it was true and that they would be responsible for the bearing of their testimonies for the rest of their lives. Some people thought Smith deceived them, or hypnotized them somehow, but the Lord, perhaps foreseeing that, allowed eight men to see and handle the plates in a wooded grove. No one but them were present, there was no voice, no angel, no light—just the sound of birds.
So critics who thought that Smith deceived the three had to contend with the eight witnesses who saw nothing that might be considered mystical, and those who claimed Smith made a set of plates out of lead or other material had to then contend with those who saw the angel and heard the voice of God. Either way a critic wished to go, the Lord would put them in check by providing the other way. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
As the church grew and priesthood authority was restored, Smith was commanded to form a quorum of twelve apostles, as the ancient church had. And many of these men then experienced visions of their own and performed many miracles, as one would expect. I’ve spent years studying these miracles—miracles where the people were fed as in the days of Moses, or when their enemies were turned aside by mighty storms that suddenly manifested themselves. In one march led by Joseph, the people began to murmur and complain against the Lord. Joseph rebuked the men, saying, “Many of you think I’m a boy,” but he reminded them of his calling and, in tears, warned them that the destroying angel of the Lord would visit the camp. The men were stunned into silence, and within hours a devastating wave of cholera hit the camp and several died. Two, who later became apostles, said they learned then to bear their burdens in faith, and one of them had to remind the saints of this incident while wending their way to Utah. And it had its desired effect.
Apostle Orson Hyde dedicated the holy land for the return of the Jews and he had a magnificent vision while in his cabin in the ship. “The vision of the Lord, like clouds of light, burst into my view. … The cities of London, Amsterdam, Constantinople and Jerusalem, all appeared in succession before me, and the Spirit said unto me, ‘Here are many of the children of Abraham whom I will gather to the land that I gave to their fathers; and here also is the field of your labors.’” So it wasn’t just Joseph Smith. Other apostles also had great visions and manifestations. In other words, it wasn’t a one-man band.
The significance of all this is that just because people haven’t heard this doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. If you investigate it and say, “Well, I don’t buy it,” at least you can’t say that no one claims to have heard from God in 2,000 years. My own belief is that God is speaking today just as he did anciently, and that he will continue speaking until he returns:
For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed. And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.
Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth. Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.
And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious; yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.
Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear: Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; and the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; for they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; and also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—the weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh....
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mP
COLD:
“The Testimonium Flavianum is not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”
Actually, it’s entirely about the Jesus of the Bible. But since you have openly accused me of lying, which I’ve never accused you or anyone else on this board of, here, in full, is the Testimonium Vlavianum:
mP:
You have not quoted the text in full. Theres an entire chapter surrounding that text. you again failed to provide links. Something to hide ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum
Scholarly opinion on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate , a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum , varies. [4] [5] [1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XVIII#Chapter_5
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, [9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; [10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
You also failed to discuss who jesus the son of Damneus is. Nearly all scholars acknowledge the TF to be an insertion.
Josephus only called one person the messiah, vespaisan. He never acknowledges jesus at all outside of the TF. THere cant be two messiahs at the same time. Supposedly Josephus claims jesus is once but writes entire books about V and his divine right. Sure he was biased, but the shear weight of numbers shows the Jesus text as being at best out of place. Archeology and studies of text also shows it to be an insertion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
- Vespasian, c.70, according to Flavius Josephus [13]
But why let the facts get in the way of a lie ?
Lastly i called you a liar, because you failed to address damning problems with your assertions. i have shown that you have omitted very important facts because they are inconvenient and pose real problems to the credability to your argument. That is being dishonest and a liar.
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Django_Unchained
@adamah
couldn't tell you which is better, but at least with the tortoise and the hare i'd have been able to run track during school lol
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Cold Steel
mP: You have not quoted the text in full. There’s an entire chapter surrounding that text. you again failed to provide links. Something to hide?
Tell me, mP, do you know what the Testimonium Vlavianum is?
Let me enlighten you. The Testimonium Vlavianum is one passage in Josephus’ Jewish Antiquties. That passage is, and only is, Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63. The entire Testimonium Vlavianum is as follows:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.
That’s it. What comes before is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum and what comes after that is not part of the Testimonium Vlavianum. It is only that one passage, which you maintain is “not even talking about the Jesus of the Bible.”
Now I quoted that passage in both the standard version and the Arabic version and have had to defend myself from what?
Your ignorance. Remember what I said? Don’t resort to name calling and check your facts. You violated both...again...and now you look like an ass. Yes, there are other chapters in Josephus that have nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible. But they’re not the Testimonium Vlavianum.
You also failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. Nearly all scholars acknowledge the TF to be an insertion.
No, not an insertion. Again, you’re wrong. Just about everyone agrees that the TF is not “entirely genuine,” but the number of people who believe it was a complete fabrication is much smaller. If one reads the Arabic version, which I cited, one will see a much more realistic rendition:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.
This version may actually be genuine. Notice Josephus doesn’t call Jesus the Messiah, but reports that “his disciples” reported that he [Jesus] appeared to them after his crucifixion and that “he was perhaps the Messiah.” So he puts that term in their mouths.
You also said I failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. I assume he was the son of Damneus; he certainly has nothing to do with the Testimonium Vlavianum, nor does he figure into any discussion of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.
Lastly I called you a liar, because you failed to address damning problems with your assertions. I have shown that you have omitted very important facts because they are inconvenient and pose real problems to the credability to your argument. That is being dishonest and a liar.
As I have taken great pains to show you, mP, that you are the one who was incorrect. Again, you didn’t check your facts and you resorted to name calling. Are you now going to be man enough to apologize?
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mP
COLD:
Tell me, mP, do you know what the Testimonium Vlavianum is?mP:
First of all its Testimonium Flavianium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum
COLD:
This version may actually be genuine. Notice Josephus doesn’t call Jesus the Messiah, but reports that “his disciples” reported that he [Jesus] appeared to them after his crucifixion and that “he was perhaps the Messiah.” So he puts that term in their mouths.
mP:
Pilate ruled for 40ish years, he executed many people called Jesus (actually Joshua). Just because J had some disciples doesnt make him Jesus of Nazareth. Its not as if J was a unique name.
COLD:
They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive;
mP:
COLD:
You also said I failed to discuss who Jesus, the son of Damneus, is. I assume he was the son of Damneus; he certainly has nothing to do with the Testimonium Vlavianum , nor does he figure into any discussion of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.
mP:
Read Josephus other reference to a man called Jesus, that xians claim refers to Jesus of N.
COLD:
And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.
mP:
The word Christian does not appear in the Bible. Originally it was Chrestian and that only appears 3 times. You can verify this by searching for it in the codexsinacticus.org. Christian evolved much later.
This line is the one that most scholars use to demonstrate the TF to be a fraud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimonium_Flavianum
The earliest secure reference to this passage is found in the writings of the fourth-century Christian apologist and historian Eusebius , who used Josephus' works extensively as a source for his own Historia Ecclesiastica . Writing no later than 324, [53] Eusebius quotes the passage [54] in essentially the same form as that preserved in extant manuscripts. It has therefore been suggested that part or all of the passage may have been Eusebius' own invention, in order to provide an outside Jewish authority for the life of Christ. [55] [56] However, it is also possible that others, including the third-century patristic writer Origen also knew of the passage. Although Origen makes no direct reference to the Testimonium , scholars such as Louis Feldman and Zvi Baras have presented arguments that Origen may have seen a copy of the Testimonium and not commented on it for there was no need to complain about its tone. [57] [58]
Of course its authentic thats why its unknown for 400 years, an no christian doctor or apologist mentions it for that period of time.
COLD:
As I have taken great pains to show you, mP, that you are the one who was incorrect. Again, you didn’t check your facts and you resorted to name calling. Are you now going to be man enough to apologize?
The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to interpolation. [5] [6] [7] [8]
I would apologise i always do, and always reply to people when i can with a direct question. Given i have shown you have lied what are you to do ?
We have a perfect example of you lying without reasomnable doubt.
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mP
COLD:
On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.
mP:
Lots of people back then did miracles, Vespasian supposedly cured a blind man. Considering it doesnt say what marvelous things he did, this is hardly specific in pin pointing an individual.
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Cold Steel
mP: First of all its Testimonium Flavianium.
Yes it is, my mistake. It was a copy and paste error. Let me rephrase: Do you have any idea what the Testimonium Flavianium is?
You're the one who said that it contained nothing of the Jesus in the Bible. You were completely incorrect. Now, instead of admitting you made an error, you reply with another criticism. What difference does it make when the word "Christian" appeared? Does that make a difference?
mP:Lots of people back then did miracles, Vespasian supposedly cured a blind man. Considering it doesnt say what marvelous things he did, this is hardly specific in pin pointing an individual.
Look, no one is even reading this thread any more. Your observation, above, is irrelevant. Vespasian was first supreme commander of the military force that destroyed Jerusalem. Then he was emperor. Do you think anyone is going to dispute him? But how about Jesus? Where are those who disputed him at the time?
Also, please show me where I lied, just so I know.
Oh, and if you go to college, try taking some theology courses while you're at it. You seem to be getting all your information from questionable sites.