DeWandelaar:Now in “Smith’s” case it does not prove anything... IF he had the golden plates however that would have given everyone a sort of proof that at least the plates existed (although even that would not give a proof of divine interaction since everyone who has golden plates can make a bogus language only HE can read).
What many people forget in this debate is, one, anyone can receive affirmation from God regarding his truths (James 1:5-7), and two, those who accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and covenant with him, are the beneficiaries of those covenants, not GOD. By accepting heirship, one becomes a joint heir with Jesus Christ, receiving all that the Father has. So it’s a distinct benefit (and this is a gross understatement), and a supreme act of love, to receive such blessings. Many atheists and critics seem to think that they’d be doing the Lord a favor by accepting him and the ransom for their sins, Jesus Christ.
That said, let me iterate the fact that God has no interest in providing proof of his existence in spectacular displays of miraculous wonder. That said, miracles follow them that believe. One of our early apostles, Elder Parley Pratt, tells this story:
As the meeting closed a man named William Cory stepped forward, and earnestly begged of me to go home with him and minister to his wife, as she was lying at the point of death in consequence of a lingering sickness, not having risen up in her bed for six days without swooning or going into fits. He further said that he was worn out by being up with her every night, and that his neighbors were weary with watching, and it was doubted whether she could survive through the night without relief.
The Spirit would not suffer me to go with him that night, but I promised to call in the morning. At this many voices were heard, saying: “Yes, yes, there’s a case in hand; let him heal her and we’ll all believe.” Others exclaimed: “I wonder if she’ll be at his meeting tomorrow! We shall see, and if so, we’ll all believe.” Expressions like these, joined with my own weakness, only tended to dampen my courage and confidence in the case.
I went home with a friend who invited me to partake of his hospitality for the night. As we entered his house, we found one of his children very sick with a violent pain in the head, to which it had been subject from its birth, and which came at regular periods, and was never relieved till it gathered and broke at his ear-so said his parents. The little fellow was rolling from side to side in his bed, and screeching and screaming with pain. I stepped to the bedside, and laid my hands upon his head in the name of Jesus Christ; he was instantly made whole and went to sleep. Next morning he got up well, and continued so; he said that the pain all left him as soon as my hands touched his head.
In the morning, before I arose, I had a vision, as follows: I saw a log house, and entered it through a door at the northwest corner; in the northeast corner lay a woman sick in bed; in the southeast corner was a small door opening into an adjoining room, and near it a stairway, where stood a ladder; the fireplace being in the south end. As I entered the house and laid my hands on the woman, she rose up and was made whole; the house being crowded, she took her seat near the fire and under the ladder, or near by it, and she praised God with a shout of glory, clapping her hands for joy, and exclaimed: “Thank God, I’m every whit whole.” I awoke from my vision and related the same to the family where I stayed.
The man harnessed his horses, and with seven or eight persons in the wagon, including myself, we started for meeting, intending to call and see Mrs. Cory on our way, as I had appointed the previous evening. On alighting at her house I saw it was the same that I had seen in the vision; there were the doors, the stairway, ladder, fireplace, bed, and sick woman, just as I had seen and described.
I laid my hands upon the woman, and said: “In the name of Jesus Christ, be thou made whole this instant.” I then commanded her to arise and walk. Her husband burst into tears; the people looked surprised; but the woman arose and walked to the fire, and happened to take her seat near the ladder, as I had related in the vision before I saw her. She then clapped her hands for joy, gave a shout of “Glory to God in the highest,” and testified that she was every whit whole. We invited her to accompany us to the meeting; she immediately made ready, walked out, helped herself into the wagon, and rode some two miles over a very rough road. She then got out of the wagon, and walked with a strong and quick step into the meeting, where she sat till the discourse was over; when she arose and testified what the Lord had done for her. She then rode home, and was baptized in connection with several others, who came forward and obeyed the fulness of the gospel. We afterwards laid our hands on them for the gift of the Holy Ghost, when it fell upon them in great power, insomuch that all in the room felt its power and influence and glorified God; some spake in tongues, others prophesied and bore testimony to the truth.
The next evening I went over to Sackett’s Harbor in order to preach; many of the people from Pillar Point, who had witnessed these things, went with me, and, among others, Mr. Cory with his wife, who had been so miraculously healed. A great rabble came out to hear, or rather to disturb the meeting; and among others, some half dozen clergymen of different orders, who were loud in their challenges and calls for miracles; “give us a miracle—we want a miracle—heal the sick, raise the dead, and then we’ll believe!” The lying, rage, and confusion excited by these wicked spirits, broke up the meeting, and I had much ado to get out of the crowd without being stoned or torn to pieces. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pgs. 90-92)
When he was younger, Pratt was troubled by the state of Christianity in his day. He, like the OP of this thread, wondered why God had ceased speaking to man 2,000 years ago. To him, it not only was important that baptism was performed correctly, but that those administering it should be called of God. He eventually was impressed by Alexander Campbell and Sidney Rigdon, the founders of the churches of Christ, but he was troubled by the fact that Campbell claimed neither revelation nor the ministerial authority to baptize. Later, both he and Rigdon joined the LDS church and led away a significant portion of Campbell’s church, which infuriated Campbell. Campbell also claimed that the days of apostles and prophets had ended long ago, and that healings and other spiritual gifts were a thing of the past.
The moral of the story, above, is that the influence of skeptics and unbelievers can have a negative effect on the faith of believers. Many early elders wrote that attempts to heal were often thwarted by the unbelief and ridicule of onlookers. Pratt traveled many thousands of miles on foot, once in a blinding snow storm—his only food a frozen piece of bread which hunger compelled him to gnaw on. He preached and healed throughout his journeys and essentially did what the ancient apostles did.
Regarding the gold plates, there were a number of reasons they were intended to remain hidden. First, Joseph Smith was only allowed to translate the first third; the rest were sealed and intended to come forth at a later time, perhaps in the Millennium. Second, even if he produced “the record” as his family referred to it, it still would not prove the integrity of his translation. They would merely be artifacts and, reason three, expensive ones at that. Recall that the record was found on property not his own, and chances are the land owner would have most likely laid claim to it. Even with no one other than Smith seeing it, there were vagabonds and thieves who were trying to get the record by force. Except for the intervention of the Lord and Smith’s immense strength, they almost succeeded. Finally, the Lord has no particular desire to “prove” his works to unbelievers.
In situations like the one Elder Parley Pratt described, above, you’d think many of those curiosity seekers—ones who knew of Mrs. Cory’s experience—would have all stepped forward to join the church, but only a few did. The curiosity seekers and skeptics seemed nowhere to be found. At this point it’s important to point out that neither Pratt nor any of our other elders have, at any time, leaned on miracles as proof of the gospel’s authority.
LDS authority James Talmage writes: “The exercise of these powers...ordinarily termed miracles, is by no means an infallible proof of divine authority; for some true prophets have wrought no such wonders, so far as records show, and men have been known to work miracles at the instigation of evil spirits.” Nevertheless, he added, the possession of the power in the working of miracles is an “essential characteristic of the Church,” and when such things are wrought in the accomplishment of holy purposes they serve as “confirmatory evidence of divine authority.”
If God were to reveal himself through incontrovertible miracles, without the converting power of the Spirit, men would be obligated to obey or face the dreadful power of heavenly judgments. Such miracles also don’t have the staying power of influence wrought by the Spirit. In the Book of Mormon, miracles in the new world accompanying the birth of Christ scared the skeptics silly, because they knew they had been prophesied. Over the years, however, they grew complacent and became convinced they had simply witnessed anomalies of nature, an idea the prophets laid directly at the feet of the Adversary. As the date of Christ’s prophesied death and resurrection approached, many of these same skeptics planned an all out attack on the church. But before they were able to put their plans in effect, a great storm of darkness moved in over the land and there were lightnings and thundering. Then the fabric of nature seemed to give way as earthquakes and volcanic activity began to destroy the wicked from the face of the land. Cities were sunk into the earth and tsunamis destroyed coastal areas. Then, three days later, on the first day of the week, it all stopped, and the Book of Mormon then records the visitation of the “God of Israel,” Jesus Christ.
The enemies of the church who just days earlier were planning an onslaught against the church and its leaders were gone. The miracles three decades earlier had not carried them through this cataclysmic event. The wicked were dead and their bodies were carried away in their cities which were now buried, swept out to sea, or burned. Had the miracles stuck with them, they would have been converted and been at the temple to welcome the Messiah. So miracles don’t work. Many in the early LDS church witnessed numerous miracles, yet fell away.
All I ever hear from religious people is a whole lot of stories but you need to know that they who make a claim have the “proof of burden.”
“Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.”
“The necessity of proof is incumbent upon the
person who makes the claims.”
Well, as I said, we need not prove anything, though if you were willing to put the time into it, we could provide you and anyone else with compelling evidence. But evidence and proofare two very different things.
One question I’ll put to you guys is, what kind of proof would you be happy with? What would it take to convert you and cause you to dedicate the rest of your life to living and proclaiming the gospel. (And I don’t mean having you go door-to-door or spending all your free time in meetings or engaged in “Bible studies”?)
Would a voice from Heaven do it? How about an angelic visitation? Or would restoring a limb to an amputee do it for you?
Invito beneficium non datur!
