Did Moses prophesy falsely? Is it always unforgivable?
by DATA-DOG 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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DATA-DOG
Oops! Sorry!
So Moses spoke for God, right? A prophet is someone who speaks for God and relays his messages and commands. According to many commentaries, prophesying does not always involve predictions of future events. So you can be a prophet by just telling someone what God says, or what God wants them to do, right?
So what happened at Meribah? YHWH gave Moses a specific command, but Moses became angry and only followed some of YHWH's commands. Moses also claimed credit for God's miracle. So did Moses "prophesy" falsely in this instance?
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mP
DataDog:
I think the main motivation for the story was simply a way to kill Moses off. After all since he was gone, they had to have a way of explaining this and to also scare the locals w/ the fear of god.
Like all good stories in the Torah, there are two versions of the same ev ent, that are the same but also different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meribah
The Biblical text mentions two very similar episodes that both occur at a place named Meribah . The episode recounted by the Book of Exodus features the Israelites quarreling with Moses about the lack of water, and Moses rebuking the Israelites for testing Yahweh ; [8] the text states that it was on this account that the place gained the name Massah , [1] meaning testing , and the name Meribah , [1] meaning quarreling . The narrative in the Book of Exodus states that, on account of their thirst, the Israelites grumbled against Moses, [9] so Moses, in fear for his life, appeals to Yahweh; [10] the narrative continues with Yahweh telling Moses to walk ahead of the others, and strike the rock at Horeb with his rod, [11] and when Moses does this, it causes the rock to expel water. [12]
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Fernando
Don't know about Meribah, but yes a prophet is a messenger.
And the WBTS is a false prophet that promotes the "god of religion" instead of the "God of Abraham" and his message the "unabridged gospel".
(Why does the "true religion" secretly blind its followers to the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)
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Cold Steel
DATA-DOG: So Moses spoke for God, right? A prophet is someone who speaks for God and relays his messages and commands. According to many commentaries, prophesying does not always involve predictions of future events. So you can be a prophet by just telling someone what God says, or what God wants them to do, right?
Absolutely. Moses often came down from the mount to instruct the Lord’s people. He made numerous prophecies during his time, but most of the time he was the Lord’s agent in conveying the will of him who sent him.
So what happened at Meribah? YHWH gave Moses a specific command, but Moses became angry and only followed some of YHWH's commands. Moses also claimed credit for God's miracle. So did Moses "prophesy" falsely in this instance?
Moses lived until he was a hundred and twenty years old and many of those years were spent representing the Lord and speaking to him face to face. Even as the recalcitrant Israelites were slipping back into idol worship at Sinai’s base, Moses was receiving detailed revelations from the Lord. In fact, he was interrupted in the middle of his meeting when Yahwah commanded him to get back down and take care of the problem.
My point is that he spent a great deal of time identifying with the Lord, even more than his own people, so no, I don’t believe Meribah had anything to do with Moses’ untimely departure. Meribah means “chiding” and is the place where Moses chided Israel for their disbelief. He may have been a bit presumptuous, but it was nothing that couldn’t have been settled with a mild rebuke. He certainly didn’t prophesy falsely.
One of Moses’ scribes subsequently wrote: “So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And...when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.” (Deut. 34)
The truth is, no one even knew whether Moses died or not. Jude tells us that the angel Michael entered into a “bitter” dispute with Satan over Moses’ body. This hardly makes sense if Moses just died and was buried. Nevertheless, whatever happened, the Lord rebuked Satan, and whatever it was that Satan objected to happened.
Josephus writes of Moses’ final moments with the people:
He withdrew among the tears of the people; the women beating their breasts, and the children giving way to uncontrollable wailing. At a certain point in his ascent he made a sign to the weeping multitude to advance no farther, taking with him only the elders, the High Priest Eleazar, and the general, Joshua. (Antiquities of the Jews, VI:8:48)
According to Josephus, Moses “dismissed the elders, and then, as he was embracing Eleazar and Joshua, and still speaking to them, a cloud suddenly stood over him and he vanished in a deep valley.”
So according to Jewish scripture and tradition, the fate of Moses was not really witnesses. Is there any reason to think Moses might have been taken in the same way Elijah and Enoch were? In my view, yes. Not only did Satan “bitterly” oppose whatever happened to Moses’ body, but Moses appeared with Elijah on the mount of transfiguration in Jesus’ day. This appearance was for a purpose, but it’s not revealed in the New Testament scriptures.
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mP
Cold:
Absolutely. Moses often came down from the mount to instruct the Lord’s people. He made numerous prophecies during his time, but most of the time he was the Lord’s agent in conveying the will of him who sent him.
mP:
Did God really write all those 613 laws in the Torah ? Did God really write up a law about men shaving beards and did he really say it was ok to have slaves, rape women and so on ?
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DATA-DOG
I am just curious because even if it was unintentional, prophesying falsely is wrong. It is " outright revolt " against YHWH, which is apostasy. Solomon apostatized, and he recieved an honorable burial, so he may have been forgiven. I am trying to write a letter for my family to break the spell that the GB have upon them. I am trying to show how they have committed the sin of being a false prophet, but at the same time not come across as being judgemental or disrespectful. If I can make them see that the WTBTS has claimed to be a prophet, and then prove that what they said did not come true, then it could be a step forward.
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Ucantnome
Data-Dog, this comment isn't regarding Moses but is regarding prophesying of future events and being a prophet some one who relays Gods messages.
I didn't leave the Witnesses because of the failed expectations of 1975 or that the teaching of the generation changed. Right of wrong I left over Matthew 24:30 and what I understood as a change to the understanding of this verse.
In the book Jehovah's Witnesses-Proclaimers of God's Kingdom on page 12/13 it says this.
'According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, "the concept of witness [is used] both in the sense of witness to ascertainable facts and also in that of witness to truths, i.e. the making known and confessing of convictions." So a witness relates facts from direct personal knowledge, or he proclaims views or truths of which he is convinced.'
I was no longer convinced (1. completely certain about something, 2. Firm in one's belief, with regard to a particular cause or issue. Merriam Webster-Free Dictionary) about what we preached about 1914.
The reason I was no longer convinced was this. At primary school I had been witnessing to a boy and I was discussing Christ's return and the sign. At lunchtime I went home to get my bible and show him some scriptures. I read Matthew 24. I was dismayed. The 'sign' wasn't mentioned until verse 30. then this, then that, then the 'sign'. I got the Watchtower out and looked it up in the Watchtower January 15th 1966 where it explains it in the article The Sign of the Son of Man. I accepted the explanation because I was 10 and understood that this was the faithful and discreet slave class appointed to hand out food at the proper time explaining this. As it says on page 37.
'There is one sign today that is of the highest importance to every person on earth. For us to see it, to understand it correctly and to act in accord with it promptly will spell the difference between life and death for each of us. What is this sign? Where can it be seen? And how should it be read?'
directly following this under the heading The Most Vital Sign it says, 'Christ Jesus referred to this sign when he said: "Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and them all the tribes of the eartheill beat themselves in lamentation and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)
This I understood from the article occured in 1914 with the establishment or birth of the kingdom. This was what I was preaching and sharing with the boy at school. (Matt. 24:14) The message that I was convinced of, although reluctantly as to me Matthew 24 read differently, as it came from the the anointed.
I didn't think that the boy at school would understand it i thought he would read Matthew 24 as i had and so i deliberately avoided him when i returned to school.
In the Watchtower February 15th 1994 page 20 under the heading What is to Come? it says But Matthew 24:30 points forward to a further "sign" appearing in the future, that of "the Son of man,"
My confidence to preach the message that I had preached as a Witness went. I could no longer be a witness as I lacked the confidence in the message that we preached because the message that I should have told my school mate that Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled in 1914 and how important it was to recognize this for life would have been wrong. This was nothing to do with prophesying.
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Ucantnome
The way I see this is this. I have no problem with the Good News that I understand was preached by the apostle's. I have faith in Christ death and resurrection. But I won't preach the kingdom established in 1914 and any return of Christ in that year as I lack the confidence now in that message.
Therefore I was associated as a baptised christian with Jehovah's Witnesses and was a witness. Now no longer having the confidence in the message i cannot identify myself with supporting them in the work. So do they believe I will die at Armageddon although I believe in Christ ransom but lack the confidence to preach the message of the establishment of God's Kingdom in 1914 due to the things they taught? I think if they did then they go against the ransom.
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mP
UCant:
But jesus got his message wrong. All the believers thought it was their generation.