All the believers thought it was their generation.
Perhaps they didn't understand the 'overlapping generations' concept.
Did Moses prophesy falsely? Is it always unforgivable?
by DATA-DOG 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Jim_TX
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Cold Steel
mP: Did God really write all those 613 laws in the Torah? Did God really write up a law about men shaving beards and did he really say it was ok to have slaves, rape women and so on?
You’ll have to ask specifically and give me the reference. Also describe what you mean by having slaves and, again, give me a reference. Are you including indentured servants? Also, I’m not aware of any laws in the Torah about raping women.
DATA-DOG: I am trying to write a letter for my family to break the spell that the GB have upon them. I am trying to show how they have committed the sin of being a false prophet, but at the same time not come across as being judgmental or disrespectful. If I can make them see that the WTBTS has claimed to be a prophet, and then prove that what they said did not come true, then it could be a step forward.
The question, for me, is that when Jehovah inspected all the religions on Earth and chose the WTBTS, just what were the mechanics involved in that? When I visit the Jehovah's Witnesses website and navigate to the frequently asked questions section, the questions posed are often couched in language that is, well, slippery. For example, you can know a religion is true because it promotes belief in the Bible, belief in true doctrine and whether it bears good fruit.
That may work fine for a Methodist, but if I were looking for a religion that exercised God’s authority, I’d want to find out how that religion got that authority and how God communicated it to mankind. Most Protestants see the church as a body. Some sects may be the feet, others the hands, eyes, ears and so forth. The “feet” may represent Christian sects that establish missions worldwide and who are on the go; the “hands” would be those who build up the body of Christ; the “eyes” would be sects who have great understanding of the Bible and history and the “ears” would be those Christians who hear God’s will and so forth. The Catholics and Orthodox faiths believe the authority was passed down in succession; Anglicans see the establishment of kings as defenders of the faith. Mormons believe that the authority was once on the earth but was lost, and could only be restored by heaven-sent messengers. Adventists believe authority to be established merely by receiving revelation and guidance from God. Thus, Ellen G. White, who received guidance from heaven that Christians were worshipping on the wrong day of the week, was able to establish an obedient church that meets on the “seventh day,” Saturday.
Even though the Jehovah's Witnesses don’t have an actual prophet who could point them in the right direction, its earliest leaders seized upon the name “Jehovah” as a distinct part of its worship. And unlike all the other sects, instead of concocting a way to receive divine authority, it simply assumed it. It’s leaders, as far as I know, have never claimed to have received any of the revelations as the first century apostles. I’m just amazed that none of the Jehovah's Witnesses has ever asked why! If God freely spoke through his servants in the first century, what possible reason would he have for not doing so now? Even after Jesus had died, been resurrected and ascended into heaven, the servants of God were continuing to receive revelation from God. Now, in our day, he establishes a church, or kingdom, and he doesn’t whisper a word of it to the Bible Students, to Charles T. Russell, or to Joseph Rutherford. Then the Lord creates a hierarchal command structure called the Governing Body and he utters not a word, neither did he reveal it to any of his servants anciently so they could write it down. “For surely the Lord God will do nothing save he shall reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)
Whether this type of reasoning will undermine the Governing Body as far as your family is concerned I don’t know. I do know that if I went out and bought myself a large yacht, slapped “U.S. Navy” on the side and walked aboard wearing a purloined Admiral’s uniform, I would no more be a real admiral than I would be the Pope of Rome!
Add to all this that these self-appointed representatives of the Lord can tell you what to read and not read, who you associate with, how your family and friends treat you, what you believe and don’t believe (whether it’s in the scriptures or not). Finally, everyone knows their reputation as prophets and prophecy, so we need not go into that.
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mP
mP: Did God really write all those 613 laws in the Torah? Did God really write up a law about men shaving beards and did he really say it was ok to have slaves, rape women and so on?
COLD:
You’ll have to ask specifically and give me the reference. Also describe what you mean by having slaves and, again, give me a reference. Are you including indentured servants? Also, I’m not aware of any laws in the Torah about raping women.
mP:
Here goes a few about slavery. If you want more ask.
The master can beat the slave, as long as they dont die within 2 days. Isnt being in the union with jehovah grand !
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Foreigner slaves are forever. There was a big difference between Hebrew and F slaves.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Isnt that nice, a father sells his daugther to slavery, so she can be forced into marriage and raped.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Rapist must buy the raped victim for 50 coins. Its obvious the motivation for this law is so the owner of the women gets compensation for a lost marriage dowry. At no stage does the victim get any protection or justice as we would expect. The poor girl must marry the rapist. No wonder muslsims today wont let their women walk down the street. With a system of law using ideas like this its a terrible place to live.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
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mP
Cold:
There are plenty of resources on the net - you can search for them yourself if your interested. I would encourage you to search and read the scriptures they highlight. Nobody needs to make this stuff up its there in the bible if you want to look.
evilbible.com has plenty of scriptures. You just need to be open and honest and verify each and every quotation that they give.
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Cold Steel
No one denies the scriptures spoke of slavery, but the Israelites were not under the same restrictions as the people who were enslaved. Thus, an Israelite father could not sell his daughter into slavery, but he could give them as wives. Nowhere is rape condoned in the scriptures you supplied.
Slavery, for good or for worse, was a practice of the times. I recommend the following for further background information.
A 'Slave' of Christ Jesus: Ancient Slavery As a Biblical Metaphor for Salvation
In our modern context, we naturally reflect on the cruel and inhumane nineteenth-century American slavery when approaching the topic. This would be harmful in the case of the ancient world, as the slavery known to the biblical writers was quite different. Generally speaking, the relationship between master and slave in the ancient world was much more civilized and compassionate than the modern model with which we are familiar.
As stated in the article, slavery then was completely different than it was later in history, such as under Rome, the Turks, and African slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. Jesus never preached against slavery, but urged that slaves be loyal to their masters and to seek first the Kingdom of God. It is further evidence that he was no social reformer, but taught that this life was the time to prepare to meet God, and that was to take precedent over everything else. So while Jesus never condemned slavery (that wasn't his mission), he never condoned it, either. But it was part of a Law that was very moralistic in my view.
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mP
COLD:
No one denies the scriptures spoke of slavery,
MP:
You just did.
COLD:
but the Israelites were not under the same restrictions as the people who were enslaved.
MP:
I supplied some scriptures showing that non jews got a much worse deal. Pretty strange for a god who loves everyone to be racist.
COLD:
Thus, an Israelite father could not sell his daughter into slavery, but he could give them as wives. Nowhere is rape condoned in the scriptures you supplied.
MP:
Go back 2 posts, its the first line of the scripture, it clearly says sell shis daughter as a slave. If God meant give daughter as a wife then he should have said so. However the text continues to use slave in reference to the daugther on multiple accounts.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Were you lying, or cant you read ?