Young man walks out of Glasgow convention and commits suicide

by jambon1 92 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Truthexplorer

  I think the talk that stood out for me that morning was the one about putting on a false front ie puttng on an appearance at meetings etc but doing things we shouldnt be doing as christians such as using technolology re looking at things of a sexual nature, being involved in bad business practices etc. I didnt see anything wrong in what was said......but can understand how someone suffering from depression might feel about themselves if in a dark place. I also heard about the sad news at the convention.......it was very sad to hear this. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and freinds.

  TE
• 

  steve2

  Steve2,.

  I'm not sure why you would not want the media to run with this story, IF it is factually presented.

  A reasonable question, notjustyet. I think jgnat has answered it well:

  One suicide does not a trend make. If I were to interest the media, I'd like to find an old-time investigative reporter to investigate on a wider scale, if truly suicide and depression is higher amongst the Witnesses than the general population. To be fair, the investigation should include other religious bodies for comparison. Are all religions depressing?

  Besides, regardless of anyone's views on the organization, I question the practice of putting a grieving family under the spotlight by beating up the connection between the organization and their son's death. At best, we are speculating that it had something to do with what he heard at the convention, but we do not know.

  Sadly, distressed young people are particularly prone to depressed mood and suicidal ideation. I have heard of tragic cases of young ones (not necessarily affiliated with any religious organization killing themselves because their peers were sending derogatory text messages.

  The last thing we need is a media bun fight over "causes" of suicide - when all we can do is speculate about causes.
• 

  Glander

  Well said. There is plenty of evidence that JW's are an unhealthy cult with a lot of mental problems. But there is no point in making this tragic suicide was because of the cult unless it is very conclusive.

  Oompa had his own inner demons. Being enmeshed in the JWs didn't help.
• 

  metatron

  Let me make the dishonesty of Jehovah's Witnesses manifest here.

  Some years ago, the Society made clear that they do not want anyone to cooperate with surveys about the organization. This was first expressed in a BOE letter and later, an announcement in the KM.

  They don't want hard figures about divorce. Or mental illness. Or depression. Or family breakdown. Or suicide.

  Instead, they want to pretend that 'all is well' - that Witnesses are joyful and that their families are happy and stable.

  They want profitable fantasies to dominate Witness thinking.

  metatron
• 

  notjustyet

  Suicides usually only happen one at a time and would usually have some family members that would be halluded it was alluded to they this religion had something to do with it. If fear of hurting a family member prevents an honest evaluation on whether or not the WTBTS control over a person has anything to do with the suicide, you will never get to the chance to look into the matter.

  If what a previous poster squid was true about the BOE letter stating that the WTBTS does not want any participation in surveys, then that alone should be reason to think that prey know the numbers are higher than the populace.

  Don't let fear of hurting a few person thoughts or feeling prevent research that could save actual lives.

  Here are a few links that I had seen in the past regarding Jws and their mental health.

  NJY

  http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-witnesses-and-psychiatric.html

  http://www.seanet.com/~raines/mental.html
• 

  wasblind

  life is hard enough, whether your a Jehovah's Witness or not

  But Jehovah's witnesses go through life over thinkin' even the most simple decisions

  If a kid wanna join the school track or football team. or join the high school band

  They are made to feel guilty because it might make " Jehovah sad "

  and takes time away from the preachin' work

  Didn't you know ? The gift of salvation is null and void

  so you better get your field service time in or be destroyed

  Jehovah's Witnesses have to go through life makin' sure they don't cross boundries

  like what day to eat a piece a cake, or have candy corn on holloween

  I believe that this religion helps bring on or make worse mental illness

  you always have to overthink things and feel guilty as heck in the process

  There's no simplicity , no middle ground , everything is either black or white

  Because time is short they say. And the end is near
• 

  steve2

  Bias toward the question of mental illness inside the organization works both ways. Just as the Watchtower can be portrayed as having a vested interest in stopping research-surveys on JWs mental health, others, including we ex-JWs, have a vested interest in claiming it is an organization that could be hazardous to mental health. Owning our vested interests is healthy - as we often point out the Watchtower does not own its own bias (religious organizations seldom do).

  The question of the prevalence of suicide among JWs is often discussed on forum such as JW.net. However, even if the Watchtower "allowed" research on this question, it does not settle the important questions regarding how this compares with other religious groups and a considered appraisal of causation.

  Although a JW-psychologist - Jerry Bergman - published some opinion pieces more than 30 years ago claiming the prevalence of mental illness was higher among JWs than the general population, his views were let down by several things, chief of which were, 1) providing no definition of mental illness (how can you make comparisons with other groups when you fail to define your key variable?) and 2) basing his prevalence assertions on clinical practice and observations (it would be like me concluding that Mormons have a problem with mental illness because I've treated 5 in the past 6 months and I've noticed others outside my work who also appear to be mentally unwell - talk about a limited and selective "sample"; meanwhile, I've lost count of the number of members of mainstream religions I've treated!).

  Furthermore, he treated the issue of causation as a done deal (i.e., asserting the Watchtower caused the higher prevalence rates). Even if it were demonstrated that JWs did have a higher prevalence of members who had been formally diagnosed with specific mental-health disorders, the "reason(s)' are far from clearcut. You could generate several competing hypothesies, including, 1) Stress in the religion leads to depressed mood or 2) the religion attracts people who are already mentally-disordered and/or unstable (so the promise of a paradise is especially attractive to them) or 3) the stress of being in a disliked religion contributes to the higher prevalence rates (e.g., the witnesses' minority status places them at greater risk of being discriminated against by secular and other religious communities). Each hypothesis is reasonable and cannot be ruled out.

  Therefore, to assert that the Watchtower causes members to become mentally-unwell and even suicidal is to advance, not a fact, but an opinion that has never ever been established by any kind of soundly designed study. This does not let the Watchtower off the hook - but it leads us to own our opinions and observations rather get carried away with our own convenient take on what is happening inside.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  steve2 the lack of the ability to preform a proper study leads us to come to conclusions by other means. If you couldn't perform an adequate sample size study, ever ( due to the non cooperation of the group) would you then just ignore any type of conclusion? Or would you take it into account, and if it is rendred the same by different sources often enough, come to the( at least garded) concusion that maybe, just maybe, the most prevelant concusion might be valid?
• 

  jgnat

  There is a way of knowing without asking Jehovah's Witnesses directly. There are some privacy implications however. Family doctors know who in their practice are Jehovah's Witnesses simply because they will have the "no blood" directive on file. It would simply be a matter of comparing how many Jehovah's Witnesses are on depression medication compared to other patients.
• 

  adamah

  Steve2 said-

  Therefore, to assert that the Watchtower causes members to become mentally-unwell and even suicidal is to advance, not a fact, but an opinion that has never ever been established by any kind of soundly designed study. This does not let the Watchtower off the hook - but it leads us to own our opinions and observations rather get carried away with our own convenient take on what is happening inside.

  Yes, but the fact is that risk factors for suicide ARE well-known, and oddly, many are exploited by groups like the JW:

  From http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/riskprotectivefactors.html

  Risk Factors for Suicide

  A combination of individual, relational, community, and societal factors contribute to the risk of suicide. Risk factors are those characteristics associated with suicide—they may or may not be direct causes.

  Risk Factors

  • Family history of suicide
  • Family history of child maltreatment
  • Previous suicide attempt(s)
  • History of mental disorders, particularly clinical depression
  • History of alcohol and substance abuse
  • Feelings of hopelessness
  • Impulsive or aggressive tendencies
  • Cultural and religious beliefs (e.g., belief that suicide is noble resolution of a personal dilemma)
  • Local epidemics of suicide
  • Isolation, a feeling of being cut off from other people
  • Barriers to accessing mental health treatment
  • Loss (relational, social, work, or financial)
  • Physical illness
  • Easy access to lethal methods
  • Unwillingness to seek help because of the stigma attached to mental health and substance abuse disorders or to suicidal thoughts

  Protective Factors for Suicide

  Protective factors buffer individuals from suicidal thoughts and behavior. To date, protective factors have not been studied as extensively or rigorously as risk factors. Identifying and understanding protective factors are, however, equally as important as researching risk factors.

  Protective Factors

  • Effective clinical care for mental, physical, and substance abuse disorders
  • Easy access to a variety of clinical interventions and support for help seeking
  • Family and community support (connectedness)
  • Support from ongoing medical and mental health care relationships
  • Skills in problem solving, conflict resolution, and nonviolent ways of handling disputes
  • Cultural and religious beliefs that discourage suicide and support instincts for self-preservation

  (U.S. Public Health Service 1999)

  Now granted, JWs cannot CONTROL some of those risk factors, since no one can, eg you cannot change whether you have a family history of suicide.

  HOWEVER, JWs well-known policies on DFing followed by shunning, discouragement from seeking assistance from "Worldly" mental health-care providers (vs relying on the "wise" elders), their anti-education stance, anachronistic approach to solving the problems of daily life (prayer, study, service), disproportionally attracting those who are likely to view the false hope of Eternal Life in a paradise setting as being desirable vs seeking treatment of underlying clinical depression, etc. ALL of these policies (and the "lure" used of claiming to possess an easy answer) INCREASE the risk factors for suicide, and decrease the protective factors.

  And while few studies have shown no correlation of religiousity and suicide across the board, it should be obvious that NOT all religions are the same: some provide members with much more allowance for independent thought and actions than others, and some are more life-affirming and accepting of those who "think different", some don't offer the lure of Panda Petting in a Gardenlike setting for an ETERNITY!

  JWs have raised the high-bar vs other religions by adopting a literal ultra-conservative interpretation of the Bible (I think of the JWs as the Marine Corps of religions, "we're looking for a few good men"), where their policies and doctrines have long-since been discarded by the ones who came up with the concepts, in the first place (Jews accept blood transfusions, and in most cases, don't shun)! The JWs make the cost of exit from the religion much higher than compared to other religions, such that their members are EXPOSED to KNOWN RISK FACTORS, and hence it's more likely to drive vulnerable individuals to the point of seeing no other way out, since there's no "safety net" underneath them.

  And remember, the POINT here is not to build a CRIMINAL CASE against JWs to prove them guilty via some legal standard in a court of law; instead, the POINT is to educate the GENERAL PUBLIC and CURRENT MEMBERS that compelling evidence exists that shows adopting the beliefs and practices of the JWs is correlated with KNOWN RISK FACTORS for suicide, which elevates the overall risk to them; hence their practices are potentially dangerous to the minority of members who DARE to leave the group.

  But again, unfortunately most people will believe only what they WANT to believe, and often for emotional reasons. The ones who MOST need to hear this message are also the least-likely to RESPOND to factually-based arguments, are likely not going to be persuaded by facts. Sad, but often true.... .

  Now that doesn't mean others shouldn't TRY to help, just that it's not likely to be fruitful approach.

  Adam