Was Jesus an Apostate?

zound

Was he viewed as an apostate by the Pharasees and religious leaders?

Did this lead to his death or was it blaspheming, or are these the same things?

Nothing in the Gospels is certain, it is made up stuff long after this Jehoshua (Jesus) may have lived. The anti-semetism of the 4 Gopels and the rest of the NT should make everyone suspicious of it aims.

zound

Let me clarify. I have strong doubts Jesus even existed at all, but wondering from the point of view of people interpretting the bible as real events.

designs

Read the accounts in the Gospels where Jesus interacts with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and then study real Judaism, it becomes very evident that the Gospels have Judaism all wrong and the teachings of these two Jewish sects.

The Jews were supposed to have said- 'His blood be upon us'- every christian should be ashamed to have ever bought into this crap.

adamah

Was he viewed as an apostate by the Pharasees and religious leaders?

Yeah, pretty much EVERY GROUP in power in Palestine was his enemy: he pissed the Pharisees AND Saduccees off.

The Torah prohibits the formation of splinter groups/sects from Judaism, making it a death penalty offense. Remember, Paul was born into a Pharisee family, abd he hunted the early Christians down as part of his obligation as an onservant Jew before encountering the vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.

Reza Aslan has written an easy read on the topic called "Zealot"; it covers the apostasy of Jesus from mainstream Judaism.

Did this lead to his death or was it blaspheming, or are these the same things?

Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition: by claiming to be the Jewish Messiah ("King of the Jews"), Jesus was directly giving the bird to Caesar, since Caesar was in control of the land of Palestine (an area occupied and under the control of the Roman Empire). That's why simply saying you were the Jewish messiah was an act of sedition, punishable by death by crucifixion, reserved as a form of punishment for crimes against the Empire. The blasphemy charge is NOT consistent with being executed by crucifixion, and the Sanhedrin didn't even have the authority by the Romans to exercise capital punishment of fellow Jews, and they would execute Jesus for a religious sin like 'blasphemy'.

Aslan's a good read: you'd like it, as it's very accessible, factually-correct and meticulously researched with footnotes.

EDIT:

Let me clarify. I have strong doubts Jesus even existed at all, but wondering from the point of view of people interpretting the bible as real events.

Yeah, I don't doubt a Jewish messiah claimaint named Jesus actually lived, and is the kernel of truth upon which the legend of Jesus is based (I'm an atheist, although the real Jesus wouldn't necessarily bear any resemblance to the stories which blossomed in his wake, and grew up around him).

Adam

Julia Orwell

I believe that in the text, the Pharisees viewed Jesus as a trouble maker and an upstart who undermined their authority over the people by telling teaching them a different way. Of course this was a threat to their power base, so this was their motive in having him executed. They cooked up the blasphemy case and on a level involving doublethink, believed Jesus really was guilty needed to be executed for it. And by doing so, they simultaneously removed the threat to their powerbase, which we know from an historical perspective drastically backfired on them.

designs

Julia- don't buy into the 'Pharisees had him killed' stuff, there is no proof and 90% of what Jesus taught he took from the schools of the Pharisees.

adamah- what proof is there that Paul was a Jew and hunted down Christians to kill them.

adamah

adamah- what proof is there that Paul was a Jew and hunted down Christians to kill them.

Uh, the NT?

Obviously, I don't think it's a historical document in the way modern people think of "history" (and Aslan also discusses that in his book).

Outside of THAT, I don't believe there's ANY independent verification (eg Roman records, etc) that Paul even existed (I could be wrong, but can't think of any, off the top of my head).

Adam

designs

NT, that's the problem. 'Paul' presents himself as a Jew but he demonstrates his lack of Jewish knowledge repeatedly in Romans, Hebrews etc., he's basically pulling one over on unsuspecting Gentiles who don't know better.

adamah

Yup, that's the irony: Christianity didn't catch on with the Jews, but it sold like gangbusters to the Gentiles, who didn't know bupkis about Judaism (it had the appeal of being mysterious to them).

Well, remember Paul was a Hellenized Jew, which is a whole nuther ball o' wax. It's like someone who's GGGF was raised in Mexico wouldn't speak the same language/share the same cultural traditions. The first century was a time period of much cultural influx and blending of ideas, and Jews were undergoing much change as a result of their exposure to foreign concepts. That's kind of the point of Christianity: the blending was EXACTLY the kind of syncretism that the Torah warned about allowing to happen, so when Jesus came along, he was exactly what the threat the Torah spoke about (a false messiah, who's followers later split off from Judaism as a Jewish cult).

Adam

Was Jesus an Apostate?

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