by zound 16 Replies latest watchtower bible
design:
Nothing in the Gospels is certain, it is made up stuff long after this Jehoshua (Jesus) may have lived. The anti-semetism of the 4 Gopels and the rest of the NT should make everyone suspicious of it aims.
mP:
Im sorry we can be certain that the gospels themselves are not sure what to say. They cant even agree when or where jesus was born and lived or who is disciples were or when he died.
@design
Read the accounts in the Gospels where Jesus interacts with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and then study real Judaism, it becomes very evident that the Gospels have Judaism all wrong and the teachings of these two Jewish sects.
The Jews were supposed to have said- 'His blood be upon us'- every christian should be ashamed to have ever bought into this crap.
mP:
You missed the point why these religious leaders were condemned. Sure the gospels condemns them, but the question remains why go to this effort. They were condemned because they inspired rebellion against rome. Everything Jesus says is give a counter judaism that is pacifist, pays taxes, works hard as slaves. The gospels never condemn a single Roman, but they are never shy of damning Jews. As you mention we have tghe absurd situation where the jews are condemned forever for killing jesus when its quite clear that herod the roman ruler gave the orders.
Thanks for the replies. I would surmise then that Jesus was viewed as an apostate but this isn't what led to his death - the blasphemy towards Caesar was probably the clincher.
What about other apostates in the bible?
Would Judas be classified an apostate?
Thomas?
Here's an excert from the article I'm writing - I want to get the facts right though:
"Classifying someone as an apostate says more about those who make the claim than the person labeled as such. For example:
Jesus Christ, according to the bible, was viewed by the religious leaders of the time as an apostate and blasphemer. But many modern Christians claim that it was in fact the religious leaders who apostatized by adding oppressive man made traditions to the law.
An ex member who speaks out against an oppressive group, is labeled an apostate by their one-time brethren. Yet someone from another denomination could view them as brave and courageous to make a stand against injustice."
To answer the question in your thread Title I would have to know in what sense you are using the word "Apostate" .
As far as I recall, the word does not appear in the N.T, though the concept is there, the usage in the O.T has to do with the "fornication" that the Israelites were said to be guilty of when worshippping deities other than YHWH. So, in the Septuagint, Porneia is the word used for such "Apostasy", probably because it is a good metaphor, Adultery, and maybe because often sexual practices such as using temple Prostitutes were a prominent part.
In the Revelation the Seer uses the same analogy, talking of "Harlots" etc, as opposed to God's pure wife.
I don't think Jesus was accused of anything like that.
Yes, the power groups of his day would have viewed him as a pestilential renegade, but as Jewish Sects of various kinds existed and worshipped at the Temple together, as Jesus did, I don't think the word would have come in to their minds about him, not even in the sense that the WT uses it.
He was a threat, with his teaching that cut at the foundation of their power and control, but they would not have viewed him as being outside the Jewish faith, IMHO.
He tipped over the money changer tables and threw the moneychangers out of the temple. Who knows who he pissed off doing that.
Zound said-
"Classifying someone as an apostate says more about those who make the claim than the person labeled as such. For example:
Jesus Christ, according to the bible, was viewed by the religious leaders of the time as an apostate and blasphemer. But many modern Christians claim that it was in fact the religious leaders who apostatized by adding oppressive man made traditions to the law.
An ex member who speaks out against an oppressive group, is labeled an apostate by their one-time brethren. Yet someone from another denomination could view them as brave and courageous to make a stand against injustice."
Actually though, his being executed by the Romans WAS the way in which Judaism 'cut off' people's membership as a Jew, so the Sanhedrin hearing was the equivalent of his Judicial Committee, and the DFing was the equivalent of his execution (the Jews weren't allowed to stone their own people to dead for the most part, but the execution at Roman hands served the same purpose of severing him from the Jewish community AND served the Roman's purposes of sending a warning to other would-be Messiah claimaints to discourage them from doing the same. It didn't work, as there was a LONG string of messiah claimaints, and Bar Kochba did the same 100 yrs AFTER Jesus' death, and almost succeeded in establishing Israel as an independent country, until the Romans decided to squash the rebellion at the cost of great loss of life on both sides).
I'd recommend something like this instead:
"Classifying someone as an apostate says more about those who make the claim than the person labeled as such. For example:
According to the bible, Jesus and his apostles were viewed by the religious leaders of the time as apostates. But Jesus himself held that it was in fact the religious leaders who apostatized by adding oppressive man-made Pharaisical traditions to the Law of Moses.
An ex-member who speaks out against an oppressive group is labeled an apostate by their one-time brethren. Yet someone from another denomination could view them as brave and courageous to make a stand against injustice."
I take it you're writing a letter to submit to the JWs? Good luck with THAT, as for the most part, they're not buying anyone else's religious interpretations, they're only SELLING their own version. So you're fighting POWER with TRUTHS, and unfortunatlely power always wins out.
Adam
