God is Jesus

by evangelist 178 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

evangelist

when abraham was visit by three people, and two were angels, who was the third person,was this Jesus in the flesh before he was even born??????????????????
Will Power

Jesus was not in the flesh before he was born.
But whatever you did to the least you did to Him.
He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
Earnest

evangelist,
You asked:
when abraham was visit by three people, and two were angels, who was the third person,was this Jesus in the flesh before he was even born?
The record in Genesis says:
Afterward Jehovah appeared to him [Abraham]...(18:1)
When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him...(18:2)
Then he said: "Jehovah, if now, I have found favour in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant..."(18:3)
At this they said: "All right. You may do just as you have spoken."...(18:5)
Later the men got up from there and looked down toward Sodom...(18:16)
Consequently Jehovah said: "...I am quite determined to go down [to Sodom] that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it..."(18:20,21)
At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham...(18:22)
Now the two angels arrived at Sodom by evening...(19:1)
So the men thrust out their hands and brought Lot...into the house...(19:10)
Then the men said to Lot: "Do you have anyone else here?..."(19:12)
However, when the dawn ascended, then the angels became urgent with Lot...(19:15)
When he kept lingering...the men seized hold of his hand...and as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: "...Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!" Then Lot said to them: "Not that, please, Jehovah!"(19:16-18).
Let's review what happened:
1.Three men ("Jehovah") approach Abraham.(18:1,2)
2.He addresses all three as Jehovah and they respond (18:3,5).
3.The men look toward Sodom.(18:16)
4.One of them ("Jehovah") determines to go to Sodom.(18:20,21)
5.Two of them go to Sodom but the one ("Jehovah") stays with Abraham.(18:22)
6.Two angels arrive at Sodom.(19:1)
7.The men visit Lot's house and speak to him.(19:10,12)
8.The angels express urgency.(19:15)
9.The men seize him and his family and take them outside the city.(19:16,17)
10.Lot addresses them as Jehovah.(19:18)
What does this all mean? There are three men? There are three angels? There are three Jehovahs? Why does Abraham address one of them as Jehovah? Why does he address them, collectively, as Jehovah? Why does Lot address two of them, collectively, as Jehovah? Why does one of them ("Jehovah") say that he will go down to Sodom and the other two go instead? If this is the trinity then are both Jehovah and Jesus men/angels?
Could it be that they are three angels who appear to Abraham/Lot as men and are authorised to speak for Jehovah? If, indeed, one of them was the pre-incarnated Jesus this would harmonise with texts such as 1 Thess.4:16.
hannibal

Does it really matter?
Whether jesus is God or Gods first born does not matter.
What is undeniable is that for christians jesus IS our
savior and only hope for salvation. The real issue to me
is not whether the trinity is true or not,but the distortion
jws have that the greek scriptures were not writen for us.
(great crowd) And that jesus is not my mediator!
If jesus is God, Great!
If Jesus is not, thats cool too.
Either way negates the point that jesus was the focus.
( they were called CHRISTians in the first century, the
same is true today) JESUS is our salvation, by Gods will,
or his own!
Will Power

Jesus said that NO ONE had seen the Father. It was Him yet still only some believed.
evangelist

evangelist,
You asked:
quote:
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when abraham was visit by three people, and two were angels, who was the third person,was this Jesus in the flesh before he was even born?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The record in Genesis says:
quote:
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Afterward Jehovah appeared to him [Abraham]...(18:1)
When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him...(18:2)
Then he said: "Jehovah, if now, I have found favour in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant..."(18:3)
At this they said: "All right. You may do just as you have spoken."...(18:5)
Later the men got up from there and looked down toward Sodom...(18:16)
Consequently Jehovah said: "...I am quite determined to go down [to Sodom] that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it..."(18:20,21)
At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham...(18:22)
Now the two angels arrived at Sodom by evening...(19:1)
So the men thrust out their hands and brought Lot...into the house...(19:10)
Then the men said to Lot: "Do you have anyone else here?..."(19:12)
However, when the dawn ascended, then the angels became urgent with Lot...(19:15)
When he kept lingering...the men seized hold of his hand...and as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: "...Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!" Then Lot said to them: "Not that, please, Jehovah!"(19:16-18).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's review what happened:
1.Three men ("Jehovah") approach Abraham.(18:1,2)
2.He addresses all three as Jehovah and they respond (18:3,5).
3.The men look toward Sodom.(18:16)
4.One of them ("Jehovah") determines to go to Sodom.(18:20,21)
5.Two of them go to Sodom but the one ("Jehovah") stays with Abraham.(18:22)
6.Two angels arrive at Sodom.(19:1)
7.The men visit Lot's house and speak to him.(19:10,12)
8.The angels express urgency.(19:15)
9.The men seize him and his family and take them outside the city.(19:16,17)
10.Lot addresses them as Jehovah.(19:18)
What does this all mean? There are three men? There are three angels? There are three Jehovahs? Why does Abraham address one of them as Jehovah? Why does he address them, collectively, as Jehovah? Why does Lot address two of them, collectively, as Jehovah? Why does one of them ("Jehovah") say that he will go down to Sodom and the other two go instead? If this is the trinity then are both Jehovah and Jesus men/angels?
Could it be that they are three angels who appear to Abraham/Lot as men and are authorised to speak for Jehovah? If, indeed, one of them was the pre-incarnated Jesus this would harmonise with texts such as 1 Thess.4:16.
Quote by Evangelist
I see that there was only one person called God, or LORD, not three Lords , or God`s, Johovah.
The bible says that no one can see Johovah and live, and there is only one almighty God, not three.
So what is happening now?????????
Let `s take a look at what you said:
Afterward Jehovah appeared to him [Abraham]...(18:1)
Quote c.moore
KJV bible says:Ge:18:1: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Ge:18:2: And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Ge:18:3: And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
you said:
When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him...(18:2)
Then he said: "Jehovah, if now, I have found favour in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant..."(18:3)
At this they said: "All right. You may do just as you have spoken."...(18:5)
Later the men got up from there and looked down toward Sodom...(18:16)
Consequently Jehovah said: "...I am quite determined to go down [to Sodom] that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it..."(18:20,21)
Quote c.moore
Ge:18:20: And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge:18:21: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
You said
At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham...(18:22)
Now the two angels arrived at Sodom by evening...(19:1)
So the men thrust out their hands and brought Lot...into the house...(19:10)
Then the men said to Lot: "Do you have anyone else here?..."(19:12)
However, when the dawn ascended, then the angels became urgent with Lot...(19:15)
When he kept lingering...the men seized hold of his hand...and as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: "...Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!" Then Lot said to them: "Not that, please, Jehovah!"(19:16-18).
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Let's review what happened:
1.Three men ("Jehovah") approach Abraham.(18:1,2)
Quote Evangelist
In my bible doesn`t say three men, are three Jehovah,sorry.
you said:
2.He addresses all three as Jehovah and they respond (18:3,5).
Quote Evangelist
Where did you get this????
What bible are you using??????

3.The men look toward Sodom.(18:16)
4.One of them ("Jehovah") determines to go to Sodom.(18:20,21)
Quote Evangelist
How are you understanding this ??????????
You said:
5.Two of them go to Sodom but the one ("Jehovah") stays with Abraham.(18:22)
Quote Evangelist
Why do you add jehovah in trhe scripture, and the bible mentions they are angels????????
LOOk at your next quote, you are contradicting yourself!
Quote you said:
6.Two angels arrive at Sodom.(19:1)
7.The men visit Lot's house and speak to him.(19:10,12)
8.The angels express urgency.(19:15)
9.The men seize him and his family and take them outside the city.(19:16,17)
10.Lot addresses them as Jehovah.(19:18)
Quote Evangelist
You need to study the whole chapter again , and understand what is happening here.
peace
Earnest

evangelist,
If you cannot accept that when this passage says 'Jehovah' or 'LORD' it refers to someone representing God then I agree it must be confusing. But what I have presented is exactly what the bible says. If you use the KJV you need to keep in mind that it often replaces the tetragrammaton with 'LORD' in the OT.
You said:
Let's review what happened:
1.Three men ("Jehovah") approach Abraham.(18:1,2)
Quote Evangelist
In my bible doesn`t say three men, are three Jehovah,sorry.
The KJV says:
And the LORD [Heb.YHWH] appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre...And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him...
you said:
2.He addresses all three as Jehovah and they respond (18:3,5).
Quote Evangelist
Where did you get this????
What bible are you using??????
The KJV says:
...and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground. And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:...And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts: after that ye shall pass on:...And they said, So do ast thou hast said.
3.The men look toward Sodom.(18:16)
4.One of them ("Jehovah") determines to go to Sodom.(18:20,21)
Quote Evangelist
How are you understanding this ??????????
The KJV says:
And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom...And the LORD [Heb.YHWH] said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it...
You said:
5.Two of them go to Sodom but the one ("Jehovah") stays with Abraham.(18:22)
Quote Evangelist
Why do you add jehovah in trhe scripture, and the bible mentions they are angels????????
The KJV says:
And the men turn their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD [Heb.YHWH]
LOOk at your next quote, you are contradicting yourself!
Just telling you what the good book says. If you believe the Bible is without contradiction then you should adjust your understanding of this passage to fit the facts.
Earnest
evangelist

Earnest
Please look at these scriptures and see if the two men were only angels, and the third man,or one of the men was Jehovah (YHWH).
Ge:18:1: And the LORD Jehovah (YHWH)appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Ge:18:13: And the LORD Ge:18:13: And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Ge:18:17: And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
Ge:18:20: And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge:18:22: And the( men )turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Notice there is no mention of Johovahs, or GODS.
Ge:18:26: And the LORD Jehovah (YHWH) said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Ge:18:33: And the LORD Ge:19:1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Ge:19:1: And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Ge:19:1: And there came (two angels to Sodom)
Notice in this scripture it says they were two angels, not two Lords, or two JehovahS (YHWHS).
Notice and study that only one of the men did the talking which was Jehovah (YHWH).
I hope this helps you to understand this chapter, that you can rightly divide the Wordof God Jehovah (YHWH) .
Proverb:4:7: Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
peace
Earnest

evangelist,
These two chapters of Genesis are particularly interesting because here you have the first of 134 tiqqune sopherim, or scribal corrections, where the Jewish copyists removed the tetragrammaton and substituted the Hebrew term for 'Lord'. This was primarily designed to preserve the dignity of God's name as they found it offensive having angels being referred to as 'Jehovah'.
We know this because notes (in smaller writing) were made of these corrections between the upper and lower margins and in the side margins between the columns of the text. This smaller writing is called the Massorah.
These have been collected by Dr. C.D. Ginsberg in his Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, (Ktav Publishing House Inc. New York). He also published several volumes containing the Massorah where it lists (Vol.I,p.25) the corrections in these two chapters as Gen. 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18.
In the passages you quote (Genesis 18:1,13,17,20,22) all references to 'LORD' are substitutions of the tetragrammaton and would be better translated as God's name, Jehovah. I simply don't know how you can say Notice there is no mention of Johovahs, or GODS.
You then go on to say:
Ge:19:1: And there came (two angels to Sodom)
Notice in this scripture it says they were two angels, not two Lords, or two JehovahS (YHWHS).
It does say "two angels". But after these two angels had taken them out of the city and told them to escape to the mountains, Lot said to them: "Not that, please, Jehovah!" This is one of the scribal changes referred to above and is well-documented as I have shown.
I hope this helps you to understand this chapter, that you can rightly divide the Wordof God Jehovah (YHWH) .
It seems quite clear that these three, whether they were men or angels, were representing Jehovah. I can think of no other reasonable exegesis of the passage and it certainly has nothing to do with your "God is Jesus" theology. If one of these three is 'Jesus' it simply corroborates what other scriptures teach of him being his father's spokesman.
Earnest
evangelist

you said:
These two chapters of Genesis are particularly interesting because here you have the first of 134 tiqqune sopherim, or scribal corrections, where the Jewish copyists removed the tetragrammaton and substituted the Hebrew term for 'Lord'. This was primarily designed to preserve the dignity of God's name as they found it offensive having angels being referred to as 'Jehovah'.
We know this because notes (in smaller writing) were made of these corrections between the upper and lower margins and in the side margins between the columns of the text. This smaller writing is called the Massorah.
These have been collected by Dr. C.D. Ginsberg in his Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, (Ktav Publishing House Inc. New York). He also published several volumes containing the Massorah where it lists (Vol.I,p.25) the corrections in these two chapters as Gen. 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18.
In the passages you quote (Genesis 18:1,13,17,20,22) all references to 'LORD' are substitutions of the tetragrammaton and would be better translated as God's name, Jehovah. I simply don't know how you can say Notice there is no mention of Johovahs, or GODS.
Quote by evangelist
When I say there is no mention of Gods, I mean there is only one Jehovah, not jehovahs, and there is only one Lord, not two or three, and more Jehovah, or Almighty Gods.
When the Lord Jehovah said, or talked it was only Jehovah Himself, not the other angels that was with HIM.
That why I wrote the scriptures where he was speaking, and the other scripture proving that the other two men were only angel servants of God , Jehovah.
you said:
You then go on to say:
quote:
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Ge:19:1: And there came (two angels to Sodom)
Notice in this scripture it says they were two angels, not two Lords, or two JehovahS (YHWHS).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does say "two angels". But after these two angels had taken them out of the city and told them to escape to the mountains, Lot said to them: "Not that, please, Jehovah!" This is one of the scribal changes referred to above and is well-documented as I have shown.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps you to understand this chapter, that you can rightly divide the Wordof God Jehovah (YHWH) .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems quite clear that these three, whether they were men or angels, were representing Jehovah. I can think of no other reasonable exegesis of the passage and it certainly has nothing to do with your "God is Jesus" theology. If one of these three is 'Jesus' it simply corroborates what other scriptures teach of him being his father's spokesman.
Earnest
Quote by evangelist
it has alot to do with God is Jesus, because you know that no man can see Jehovah and live.
You know that people can see Jesus.
Even matt 1:23 says God with us , and I can see that God was in a body , and manifested Himself in a body when he talked to Abraham.
The only different is that Jesus had his name Jesus in the new testament.
In the old testament he is Jehovah, the beginning and the end, , the alpha, and omega Re:1:17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Re:1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
There is only one savior, not three, and that is no matter how you call other men Jehovah, there is still only one God that can do anything, all thing are possible with God.
peace

God is Jesus

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