God is Jesus

by evangelist 178 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Earnest

evangelist,
Now I understand:
1.God is Jesus, because you know that no man can see Jehovah and live.
2.You know that people can see Jesus.
3.In the old testament Jesus is Jehovah.
Earnest
evangelist

Earnest
I am glad you see the way I seen the scripture.
I ask my pastor who is also a bible teacher, and know hebrew, and Greek, about Gen 18:1.
I was amazed what he taught me.
He said: that all three was God like you mention, and all three men are Jehovah , wow.
I am sorry also to try to explain the other two was angels, meaning angels that are sevant for the God.
I learned something new, and I am humble to repent when I get understanding and I say something false.
I am a human, and but I don`t give up getting understanding, and telling the truth.
I ask God to give me wisdom according to James, and he does, that why I found the truth, even if it`s from you , and my pastor.
Thank you very much, for having patience , trying to show me the truth, I thank God for using you to bring understanding to my growth in the Lord Jesus, and rightly dividing the Word of God.
by the way my pastor said: that the three men is really the trinity of God, the Father,was one of the men, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is all three.
God revealed Him self to Abraham , and Abraham knew that God was three in one. I never knew that in the old testament this revelation of God was revealed to people in the old testament, WOW.
My pastor said: in some scriptures , when said the Angel of the Lord, this is really Jesus Christ, and only people can bow down to this angle which is Jesus, but if a person bows down and worship a normal angel the angel will always say don`t bow down to me or worship me like Re:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
But look at this scripture where Jesus did not say dont worship me, he accepted the worship M't:20:20: Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
M't:20:21: And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
there are many more Scripture where Jesus is worshiped, like God is worship, because God is Jesus, and Jesus is God.
Must people have a problem with manafestations of God, and they try to understand a mystery which a normal fleshly man can`t understand.
1Tm:3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Thank you for this information
Earnest evangelist,
These two chapters of Genesis are particularly interesting because here you have the first of 134 tiqqune sopherim, or scribal corrections, where the Jewish copyists removed the tetragrammaton and substituted the Hebrew term for 'Lord'. This was primarily designed to preserve the dignity of God's name as they found it offensive having angels being referred to as 'Jehovah'.
We know this because notes (in smaller writing) were made of these corrections between the upper and lower margins and in the side margins between the columns of the text. This smaller writing is called the Massorah.
One question I must ask you, can I use this Chapter as proof for the trinity of God????
God bless you
ps: praise God for you , you have taught me something I need to know.
evangelist

Is this ok for you earnest?????
Earnest

evangelist,
Of course I am pleased if I have been able to help in your study of the scriptures. I am particularly encouraged by your willingness to adapt your understanding in the light of scripture as I had not detected such open-mindedness in your previous posts. I do wonder if you would have been as willing if your pastor had not shared my understanding that all three angels were representing Jehovah but one mustn't quibble.
You asked me if you can use Genesis 18 as proof for the trinity of God. Of course you can use it however you choose but I don't think you will find much support for the traditional teaching of the trinity. The explanation you give is "that the three men is really the trinity of God, the Father,was one of the men, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is all three." This version of the trinity is known as tritheism, or tritheistic trinitarianism. William Sherlock described it in his work Vindication of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
The Scripture, I'm sure, represents Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as three intelligent beings...The distinction of persons...cannot be more truly and aptly represented than by the distinction between three men; for Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are as really distinct persons as Peter, James, and John.
You will find this has more in common with the Mormons than with the orthodox teaching. They also believe that the Holy Trinity comprises three physically separate and distinct individuals, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.
And if you do believe that the Angel of Jehovah is really Jesus Christ, as your pastor said, then you share that belief with Jehovah's Witnesses.
I am a bit surprised at your reference to 1Tm:3:16:
Must people have a problem with manafestations of God, and they try to understand a mystery which a normal fleshly man can`t understand.
1Tm:3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
This was discussed on April 27 and AlanF comprehensively explained that the earliest manuscripts did not use the word 'God' in this verse. You replied to him: "I agree 1000% what you are saying and your post is so good that I will print and put your post on my fest platter." You may wish to revisit your fest platter on this subject.
AlanF, (if you are still reading this thread) I got hold of Ellicott's The Pastoral Epistles, to which I referred, and have some additional information on this verse in the codex Alexandrinus. He says:
The results of my examination of the Cod.Alex. may be thus briefly stated. On inspecting the disputed word there appeared (a) a coarse line over, and a rude dot within the O [Omicron], in black ink; (b) a faint line across O in ink of the same color as the adjacent letters. It was clear that (a) had no claim on attention, except as being possibly a rude retouching of (b): the latter demanded careful examination. After inspection with a strong lens it seemed more than probable that Wetstein's opinion (Prolegom. Vol. I. p. 22) was correct. Careful measurement showed that the first E[epsilon] of EUSEBEIAN, ch. vi. 3, on the other side of the page, was exactly opposite, the circular portion of the two letters nearly entirely coinciding, and the thickened extremity of the sagitta [tongue] of E being behind what had seemed a ragged portion of the left-hand inner edge of O. It remained only to prove the identity of this sagitta with the seeming line across the O. This with the kind assistance of Mr. Hamilton, of the Brit. Museum, was thus effected. While one of us held up the page to the light and viewed the O through the lens, the other brought the point of an instrument (without of course touching the MS.) so near to the extremity of the sagitta of the E as to make a point of shade visible to the observer on the other side. When the point of the instrument was drawn over the sagitta of the E, the point of shade was seen to exactly trace out the suspected diameter of the O. It would thus seem certain that (b) is no part of O, and that the reading of A [codex Alexandrinus] is os [who].
Earnest
funkyderek

I do what to say that I really didn`t understand what Alan f was gettin gat , but I erace his post from my hard disk , and put it in the trash can

Good idea, evangelist. Reading Alan's posts can stimulate the parts of the brain involved in critical thinking, which would be very dangerous for your belief system. Continue to delete anything he sends you. Don't even open it. Just a few lines may be enough to start you thinking "What if..?" and then where would you be? Also, if you ever meet Alan in person, put your fingers in your ears and sing or hum loudly.
I think you'll be OK this time though. Alan's posts can only affect you if you understand them. Best not to try.
evangelist

What is you denomination m funkyderek?
Have you been a JHW???

peace
funkyderek

What is you denomination m funkyderek?

I'm nondenominational
Have you been a JHW???
I was raised a JW. I left 6 years ago at the age of 19.
LizardSnot

Evangelist,
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says that in Rev. chapter 1 "Alpha and Omega" is the distinction given to Jehovah God.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
In the same chapter they claim that "First and Last" is the distinction given to Jesus Christ.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
Looking back to Rev. 22:13 the "First and Last" and the "Alpha and Omega" are referring to ONE being.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
The following chapters are Rev. 1 and 22 in their entirety with the specific verses highlighted:
I havent heard a good arguement against this evidence yet ;)
Revelation 1Prologue

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Greetings and doxology

4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits [1] 5 before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

One like a Son of Man

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," [2] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels [3] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Revelation 22The River of Life

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Jesus Is Coming

7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you [1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
funkyderek

I havent heard a good arguement against this evidence yet ;)

There isn't one. But it's worth reading Revelation 21 in the NWT to see the way they try to get around it. Their tortuous use of quotation marks to make it seem like someone other than Jesus is "The First And The Last" is mind-boggling.
LizardSnot

Funky,
I don't think much of the NWT because...well...quite frankly I'm not sure who all the translaters were who put it together.
Why do they keep that a secret?
I do know that they used some of Johannes Gruebber's translations...and believe me...that is a big enough deterent for me.
Their translation is all smoke and mirrors if you ask me ;)
Peace,
Lizard

God is Jesus

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