So are Republicans now openly terrorists?

by Simon 369 Replies latest social current

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    This is the problem with 'mercans ... you just don't get that medicine needs to be socialized and you object to it simply because you've been indictrinated that "socialism is evil". For healthcare though, it's different and needs to be so.

    With everything said on this thread, I think the above statement cuts to the core of it. Those that have fought and continue to fight against the ACA do not agree, with good reason, that medicine “needs to be socialized”. And the reasons stem from much more than a characterization of socialism as “evil”.

    What exactly is it about the healthcare market that makes it a unique market? I would say that there is nothing unique about it at all – but perhaps it may seem so now only after years/decades of government modification. Absent the modifications, the market would lower the cost of the care itself – allowing greater access and better care.

    The ACA, however, can’t bring down the cost of the actual care. It may seek to find a way to pay for it in behalf of consumers, but that won’t solve the real issue – overpriced care. People, no matter how much faith you have in them, will not spend other people’s money as carefully as they spend their own. And they will never ration themselves in regards to free goods and services. The consumers NEED to be connected with the cost of the services or else the prices will continue to rise (the providers have no reason to lower the price). As prices rise, the benefactor will start to cry uncle and demand the prices to be lowered by law. Or the care will have to be rationed.

    No body argues with the noble intentions of the ACA. But the moral thrust of those intentions seems to evaporate when the actual effects of the law are almost exactly the opposite of what was intended, even if that takes 10 or 20 years to play out. Everyone is covered, but there is less care for all, and the quality will go down too.

    MMM

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    The ACA, however, can’t bring down the cost of the actual care. It may seek to find a way to pay for it in behalf of consumers, but that won’t solve the real issue – overpriced care

    The consumers NEED to be connected with the cost of the services or else the prices will continue to rise (the providers have no reason to lower the price).

    ---

    Excellent points.

    As long as ACA simply focuses on paying the bill, no matter how steep the price, insurers, hospitals and medical suppliers have absolutely no reason to lower their charges.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    Just a side note to jgnat's comment:

    Marvin, Alberta is represented by a single health care group. That's many, many hospitals. A corporation of this size can demand bulk discounts. The fractured system in the US can't.

    http://www.albertahealthservices.ca/about.asp

    This is not true. Private companies are started as "associations" for Hospitals. I know this because I develop software for these associations. There are actually many different associations, all competeing with each other. Their purpose is simple - pool the supplies orders for their members and get a discount for all. Hospitals are free to leave and join competing associations, or join multiple associations, to get the best price. Because the associations compete, it tends to drive down supply costs even further - probably much more so that Alberta's single care health care group.

    But as you note above jgnat - "... American hospital costs should come down to be comparable with other developed countries." That is the real issue. Why are costs so high here? And how do you lower the cost of the actual care without price fixing or rationing?

    MMM

  • Glander
    Glander

    Thanks, Simon, I needed that.

    I was about to go off topic and be uncivil.

    The Obama & Company is currently enmeshed in it's "Make it Bad and blame the Republicans" campaign.

    I honestly feel that the unnecessary closing of the Normandy cemetary or the War Vets memorial, etc is a personal statement by Obama. The rest is political theatre.

  • sir82
    sir82

    What exactly is it about the healthcare market that makes it a unique market?

    I would say, it is essential to "life" as in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

    Or the care will have to be rationed.

    Hate to break this to you, but it already is rationed. It always has been and always will be.

    The goal of the ACA, imperfect as it is, is to (attempt to ) ration it in a more just way.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    MeanMrMustard, we do have lower costs in Canada without price fixing or rationing. I think we wait longer for elective services, say, like a knee replacement. Not so for critical care like treatment for a cancer diagnosis.

    I am basing my argument on the Vlog brother's analysis, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    I would say, it is essential to "life" as in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

    And yet, so is food. Should we socialize that industry too? Perhaps housing as well?

    Hate to break this to you, but it already is rationed. It always has been and always will be.

    Oh no, I am not arguing that at all. Even in a free market, good and services are rationed. It must necessarily be so because all goods and services are scarce. But that is exactly the reason why markets work. Markets work the best when there is a limited amount of something, and the price of any good or service contains a lot of information, among which is supply. Consumers adjust their behavoir on that, as do suppliers.

    The problem is that central planners must necessarily do a poor job at rationing because they lack the information coming from the price. Don't you find it odd that these days central planning of any industry seeks to mimic the market?

    Let me be very very clear here: I DO NOT LIKE OUR CURRENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, AND I AM NOT ADVOCATING IT. But the problems we have now can be traced back to the government getting involved with the market. We simply do not have a free market now. But we should. I am advocating that.

    MMM

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    The recovery time for a person with a knee replacement that is done bfroe they get so bad that they are out of shape, and in lots of pain every day, is MUCH quicker. The success rate of the hip surgery, for the same reason is MUCH better when performed on a more healthy person, than a deteriorating person due to the length of time of inactivity and pain.

    Why is it that Canadians will come to US hospitals for precedural or essential care? It was already showing in a study posted earlier, that the US has is highest ranking in the quality of care.

  • Simon
    Simon

    You can find studies to show pretty much anything you want. That's why it's important to look at who did the study and why - who paid for it, what were the methods, how many studies were done, what was the sample size.

    For instance, I could do studies that show people love the Microsoft Surface tablet way more than an iPad. But if it turns out Microsoft paid me to do it and I did 100 different surveys before I got the result I wanted and that one result was from sitting outside Microsoft's campus ... then the conclusions aren't really as compelling anymore.

    There are other factors to consider with healthcare too - sometimes people have personal preferences and circumstances that make them follow a course of action, go somewhere for treatment etc... which should not be used to infer the choice is "better" per se for everyone.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Great video jgnat !

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