Is John Barr's funeral talk at odds with New Light?

by Splash 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Some musings from another thread.

    If the 1919 [and, by extension, the later] FDS has now been resurrected to heaven, do they now have their 'heavenly reward'? What is that 'reward'?

    If the present day FDS gets its reward of being 'appointed over all Jesus' belongings' together with the rest of the living 'anointed,' and that is a future event, what are the 1919 FDS doing up there? Are the titles 'kings' and 'priests' empty ones because they have no realm or responsibility yet?

    If the 1919 FDS has already been appointed over all Jesus' belongings, they've had their reward now, in which case, they must also have authority over the present day FDS class since the present day FDS is surely part of 'all the Master's belongings.' Wouldn't there be, then, 2 FDS classes, one with greater status than the other? Wouldn't we also have a situation where the resurrected 'non-FDS anointed' in heaven would have greater status than the present day FDS?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    How do you know that?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    How do I know what?

  • Splash
    Splash

    If you're asking How do you know the reward includes both the FDS and other anointed?, the July WT on p.25 para 19 says:

    "Similarly, as stated at Matthew 24:47, he promised that a small group of men—the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave—will be appointed over all his belongings. In reality, all of the 144,000 will share his vast heavenly authority."

    If you're asking How do you know it's future?, that same WT says on p.24 para 18:

    "When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment — over all his belongings."

    (Edited to add:)
    If there was a first resurrection in 1919, this presupposes they have already been judged as righteous, which fits with the appointment over all Christs belongings happening in 1919 as well - old light. But the WT now says this judging of the FDS and their subsequent reward is future.

    Even though they have not spelled it out (yet), my conclusion is that there was never a first resurrection apart from that of Jesus himself.

    Splash

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Sorry Ann, Splash, not you.

    But they haven't changed the resurrection from 1919 have they?

  • caliber
    caliber

    AnnOMaly you are very sharp ... I would fear to match wits with you

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    I'm not so sharp in real life. Forums allow the time for my brain to chug into activity and put a coherent idea together.

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    I don't know if it's at odds with JW New Light. But I do know that it's at odds with the bible. The bible indicates that all the anointed will go to heaven together. A careful study of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 reveals this to be so:

    "15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord."

    After making the point in verse 15 that the living will not precede the dead, Paul goes on to say in verse 17 that the living will be caught away to meet christ together (or "at the same time" see ftn.) with the newly resurrected. The fact that Paul was stressing the point that the living will not precede the dead, makes a very strong case for his use of the Greek word ama, meaning "at the same time" (see KIT), as intended to make the point that both the living and the dead will go to heaven together - at the same time.

    So when one reads that passage objectively it says that the dead anointed will first be resurrected then the living anointed will be transformed into spirits; then both ascend to heaven together. It does not say what time interval will exist between resurrection of dead anointed and ascension of all anointed. The GB is not accepting what the bible is plainly saying. They are not letting the bible mean what it says - because then it would not fit their man-made chronological doctrines. The GB is also making the mistake of assuming that the anointed are instantaneously ressurrected to heaven itself. But remember the bible says that they will have a resurrection like christ's and christ did not go to heaven instantaneously upon his resurrection.

    Another thing is that there is strong evidence in the bible that the resurrection of the anointed is supposed to take place some time after the great tribulation and not before. Here's the evidence:

    1 Corinthians 15:52 indicates that the resurrection of the anointed takes place at the sounding of the last trumpet. Has the last trumpet already sounded? When does it sound? If it truly is the LAST trumpet then it cannot sound before the great trumpet sound mentioned at Matthew 24:31:

    "And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

    Matthew 24:29 gives the timeline for this great trumpet sound as "immediately after the tribulation". Perhaps this gathering of the anointed mentioned at Matthew 24:31 is associated with the same resurrection of the dead anointed, transformation of the living anointed, and their UNITED ascension to heaven (thus the need for "gathering them"). Both texts refer to a trumpet and interestingly the text in 1 Thessalonians also mentions a trumpet and the commanding call of an archangel - perhaps the commanding angel whom Jesus appoints to call forth the dead and oversee the other angels involved in gathering the chosen ones together?

    Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Matthew 24:29,31 indicates that the resurrection of the anointed takes place after the great tribulation and could not have taken place in 1919. But JWs are going to try to interpret Revelation 6:11 as proof that some anointed do go to heaven ahead of others. But Revelation is higly symbolic and that is the key to understanding that verse.

    The souls crying out under the altar mentioned at Revelation 6 are not literally resurrected ones in heaven. That vision pictures the sacrificial deaths of God's servants in the line of duty, figuratively crying out to God for justice even as Genesis speaks of Abel's blood crying out to God from the ground. It is noteworthy that they are seen under the altar indicating that they have not progressed beyond their sacrificial deaths, which they would have had they been truly literally resurrected to heaven. This is confirmed by them being told to "rest a little while longer". Rest and sleep often symbolizes death. Thus they are still dead. The time for their resurrection to have a share with christ in avenging the deaths of God's servants, has not come yet. Still more of their living brothers will die a sacrificial death as the wickedness of God's enemies have not yet come to completion. This, I believe, is what Revelation 6:9-11 is picturing.

  • Faithful Witness
    Faithful Witness

    I have no opinion on this topic, since it's all a load of something stinky... But I do have an observation.

    How confused do you think the average JW is, WITHOUT having a way to process these thoughts and beliefs out loud?

    Not allowed to question or wonder... I really feel compassion for these poor people. Trapped and alone, and scared to admit it.

  • designs
    designs

    John Barr got to heaven and either got promoted or demoted depending on which Wt. you read.

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