By the pricking of my thumbs.... (page 2)

og

I tend to agree that synchronicity and divination are similar phenomena, and differ somehow from seeing spirits in the manner that Sirona mentions. As far as how the deck is "prepared", presumably the shuffling and cutting allow for selective arrangement and selection. But remember, I also don't rule out something beyond unconscious influence. If you are getting interested in this, you should also be reading skeptic sites (put Skeptic's Dictionary into google for a starting point) for a measure of balance.

Xander

LOL! That's okay, I got the skeptical part down okay.

I'd describe my current state of mind as 'I want to believe'. I don't really yet. But, I want to.

Coming from a technology/science background, I tend to find it hard to believe things I cannot see, experience, or verify.

Which is I guess what I'm looking for here. Other people who HAVE seen or experienced something else.

Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana

Fire Dragon

Xander,

I have seen 'demons'...twice. Actually one was what the WTS would call a demon possessed person. According to my mother a demon talked through my voice once. I had a cousin that was a Satan worshiper. The JWs thought my mother 'had demons.' I was even talked into getting rid of her ashes after I had her cremated...a move I desperately regret now.

I will say this, if there are witches among us, they won't tell you. It isn't something they talk about.

I suggest you go to the library or a bookstore (Borders, Half Price Books, etc) and look in their occult sections. You will find many books on the subjects of witchcraft, tarot, spiritism, etc. Be careful what you read, some of it is bogus. Feel free to email me if you want other info.

"...if there is a hell, I'll see you there." (NIN - Downward Spiral)
I'll be the one providing the fire.

Xander

Looking back on the 'demonic' encounters, would you still descibe what you saw/felt/thought as associated with demons now? If not, what then?

if there are witches among us, they won't tell you

I've know two witches - my mother who is now convinced demons were trying to keep her away from 'the truth' (still a JW), and a girl in college. I was, however, brainwashed by the dubs at the time, so I avoided her with a 10-foot pole.

As to the local bookstores/libraries section on the occult...it is pretty...uhhh...useless.

There are basically two types of books in it:
1) Christians discussing how occultism is worshipping satan which will lead to you burning in hell forever and how to save those involved with it praise the lord!
2) 'Fluffy-bunny' wiccans who write in a style difficult to attribute attachment to reality with (IE. they sound high).

Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana

gsx1138

I am pretty much full Wiccan and am surprised at how little people know about the religion. They toss some tarot cards around, see a ghost, a movie, or do some superficial reading and assume they know everything. Most problems come in when you try to apply one religion to another with the blind assumption that you're right. This is the same hypocrisy that the JW religion uses. I think there is a difference between saying that you don't believe in something and saying that something is wrong. Here is a link to a FAQ that might help disspell some misconceptions.
http://www.witchvox.com/basics/wfaq.html
It is not my place to pass judgement on others whether they be Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. However, we're all human and whether it is our place or not we do it on a regular basis. I guess I just try to find the balance of it all for me. I often hear Christians talk about people not being christian because it is the easy way out. I always found this statement funny in a country full of christians. I don't think any path to spiritual enlightenment is easy. I do, however, think that most people choose to be christian because it is convenient. Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Any specific questions feel free to email me.

Dear Lord, please save me from your followers.

Xander

Well, not quite to specific questions yet, but...

Witches do not have a central 'messiah' figure, so proof of their faith must come from actual events/experiences.

By 'proof', I mean something you could show an outsider and go 'look, see, a truth'.

I'm curious what that is for you? (And, anyone else interested in answering). What about witchcraft made sense - what 'clicked', as it were? What experience made you think/realize 'hey, I've got something here'?

Curious as always...

Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana

gsx1138

Tough question. I think the main reason that there is no Messiah figure is that witches do not believe that one man/woman is above another regardless of their abilities. As far as proof. The one thing that most all Wiccan/Pagan people believe is that converting someone is very bad. You have to come to that path on your own, otherwise you're being led by someone else.
As far as my reason for becoming Wiccan, it's a long story that I'll try to abridge without leaving out anything important. I had already started to doubt the JW before I was DF'd in 1990. My reasoning was, if there is an omnipotent being beyond our understanding who gave us the ability to make billions of choices thus determining our own outcome why would he make only one way to access him/her? I think that the makers of the Bible substituted their own narrow mindedness for that of God. After the DF'ing I went to just about every christian church imaginable and while they were much better than the JW religion they all still claimed to be the one true path. They still had the we are right, you are wrong attitude when it came to other peoples beliefs. My wifes best friend was studying paganism and of course even 10 years later the JW training kicks in and I don't want to have anything to do with her. Then I get a management job and my boss (who is a really great guy) eventually lets it slip that he is Wiccan. So I decide that this guy is pretty cool and a decent person so there must be something that I'm missing. He gives me a rundown of the basic belief system with the disclaimer that Wicca doesn't have any formal Dogma per se' accept, "Do as ye will, harm no one."
I guess the kicker, to narrow it down a bit, is that he said converting people is bad mojo. He said that if I wanted to be Wiccan I had to do it myself. Now there are formal schools that teach Wicca and just like every other religion on earth some think they know the one true way. However, it is generally accepted that all paths lead to God because to do otherwise would be against the concept of free will in the first place.
This is a very short explanation but I hope it gives you some idea of where I'm coming from. Also, I'm sorry if I didn't answer the questions through some of my ramblings.

Dear Lord, please save me from your followers.

seedy3

I practice Witchcraft and have had many experiences with spirits. I am not Wiccan, I am actually an agnostic, but beleive that there is a universal energy that we all can tap into, in one way or another. I have yet to find a "Dangerous" spirit, although I have run into some that are troublesome, and others that demand their privicy and for you to respect their "homes" so to speak, if you do not respect their privicy they can cause you trouble in many ways. I do not buy the Amityville horror stuff in any way, I think the whole thing was made up, Demons do not exist, they as well are figments of someones imagination. Possesions............Give me a break, these people that feel they are possesed need to see a psyc doctor and get some medication. I have met a person that was "possesed" he seemed more like he needed a dose Haladol, and a little valium to boot.

But if you want to beleive in Demons and possesions, hey no skin off my nose.

Seedy

seedy3

And Oh FireDragon:

if there are witches among us, they won't tell you. It isn't something they talk about.

I know many witches, some are in what is refered to as the broom closet, but most I know are very open in their beliefs. They will and do talk about it, I do, they just do not force it down someones throat, like most xtains will, they do not condem you or tell you that you will be condemed for not believing as they do, like a christain does. Most I know even wear a penticle in the open to show their path, I wear one, but my wife will not let me wear it openly but I often do anyway.

Seedy

Xander

Awesome, I think I've actually started a discussion on this topic! (About time, too!)

As mentioned in my profile, I'm pagan now. Definately, 100% pagan. I believe in the basic spirits of the universe/planets/organisms/etc, which is about all I can accept right now - being a rather skeptical person. It basically covers the bases enough to explain otherwise unexplainable things (like fate, karma, etc.) but is still pretty limited as far as a religion goes.

I guess I keep poking questions out because I want to know if I'm missing something else. I guess a lot of it comes from the individuality most pagans have with their path. I mean, I can learn about all major christian religions in an afternoon, since their doctrines are centralized. But, for pagans, each persons path is their own, and I'm curious what paths others are finding that I have not. Kind of see where I'm coming from?

seedy, you mention 'experiences with spirits'. Could you describe such encounters? How they happened? What transpired?

Xander F
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)
A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
--George Santayana

By the pricking of my thumbs....

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