250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou 739 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Simon
    Simon

    The real thing we should be focused on has been mentioned several times.

    Here is the problem with JWs dying because they refuse blood: no one cares.

    Really, if they choose to die because of their crazy beliefs? Who cares ... no one. They chose it.

    Because it doesn't affect them people have no interest. (I'm generalising, some do, you get the idea though).

    The thing to focus on is not that they die but how it DOES actually affect them.

    How does it?

    Because of the cost.

    Because of their tax dollars.

    Because they are a drain on the system.

    Because they take up a hospital bed way longer than they need to.

    Because they take blood donations but refuse to donate.

    Arguing over 5000, 50,000 or 500,000 is a waste of time. We need to think like politicians and make issues into things the electorate care about through how things affect them.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “Here is the problem with JWs dying because they refuse blood: no one cares.”

    I disagree with that perspective.

    There are persons who care. For one, I care. I think you care too. I don’t think either of us is alone. I think close family and friends of JWs also care. I also think medical ethicists care. I think insurance providers care. I think lots of people care, and I think a lot more will care the more this dangerous doctrine is exposed for the mortality it causes. And, before I forget, in this discussion we’ve not even touched the extensive morbidity caused by this horrible doctrinal position.

    “Arguing over 5000, 50,000 or 500,000 is a waste of time. We need to think like politicians and make issues into things the electorate care about through how things affect them.”

    It’s no waste of time to find means and methods to draw a better circle around what Watchtower’s blood doctrine is responsible for.

    The New Zealand data set studied by Beliaev and colleagues finally provides a means to examine a defined sample set of JWs with a verifiable population of victims due to Watchtower’s blood doctrine. This is something that deserves shouting from the proverbial roof top.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Transfusion actually leads to a cost saving (US$ 22,515) per death prevented.

    ....................................

    ..................Give 44.414834 JW`s a Blood Transfusion..

    ........................Save $1000,000.00 in Health Care..

    .

    .......................Thats a much better News Article!!..

    People are way More Interested in Saving Money than JWs..LOL!!..

    .

    ................................ photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • adamah
    adamah

    Outlaw said-

    “Not every JW is going to be willing to die over a Blood Transfusion.”

    I think it's something like 10% who change their mind and come to their senses and accept blood; obviously they'd have to be withdrawn from the study at that point (and now that I think of it, the study was retroactive, so they only looked at data AFTERWARDS, not during). It would obviously be unethical to NOT give a JW blood if they had a change of heart.

    That 10% figure is even lower than those study participants in Milgram's study who chose to go along with an authority figure by following orders: 35% refused to harm others to complete the study, but apparently 90% would willingly risk their own death. That kind of makes sense: appealing to their narcissism, JWs are not considering the harm or cost to others, and figure they're only harming themselves.

    Simon said-

    The real thing we should be focused on has been mentioned several times. Here is the problem with JWs dying because they refuse blood: no one cares. Really, if they choose to die because of their crazy beliefs? Who cares ... no one. They chose it.

    Because it doesn't affect them people have no interest. (I'm generalising, some do, you get the idea though). The thing to focus on is not that they die but how it DOES actually affect them. How does it?

    Because of the cost. Because of their tax dollars. Because they are a drain on the system. Because they take up a hospital bed way longer than they need to. Because they take blood donations but refuse to donate. Arguing over 5000, 50,000 or 500,000 is a waste of time. We need to think like politicians and make issues into things the electorate care about through how things affect them.

    Yup.

    When presenting the issue to JWs, the approach to take is to point out how the policy is harmful to them personally; when approaching the general public over the blood issue, the approach is to point out how the blood policy is harmful to them personally! The appeal to personal interests is what is most likely to work, since people are inherently asking themselves, "what's in it for ME?"

    It's the same with shunning: whining about how much it hurts only validates that it's working; rather, it's likely more persuasive to point out the dehumanizing effects of "only following orders".

    It's interesting to see the White House doing exactly that today in a Press conference, focusing their message by pointing out how the gov't shutdown (due to the stalemate over funding Obamacare) is only harming taxpayers by shutting down their access to gov't services, etc.

    Adam

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    when approaching the general public over the blood issue, the approach is to point out how the blood policy is harmful to them personally!

    The appeal to personal interests is what is most likely to work, since people are inherently asking themselves,

    "what's in it for ME?"

    ...........Give 45 JWs a Blood Transfusion..

    ................................Save..

    ......

    .................................................................. photo mutley-ani1.gif...OUTLAW

  • Simon
    Simon

    When I say no one cares, its hyperbole.

    But the truth is its hard to get enough people to care enough about something to take action sufficient to bring about change.

    Its like the shunning issue ... a curiosity to watch on TV about the Amish but nothing that people will do anything about.

    Because it doesn't affect them. That is sadly the society we live in.

  • steve2
    steve2

    For every case in which we claim a JW has died as a consequence of blood refusal, the Watchtower can produce cases in which the JW survived bloodless procedures or, more compelling from the organization's point of view, died even though they received a blood transfusion (presumably against their will).

  • besty
    besty

    @marvin

    The generally accepted death rate in New Zealand from anemia is 0.002/1000. Google it.

    Based on the Beliaev study, I believe that JW's have a 10x death rate from anemia at 0.02/1000

    You are happy to propose that JW's have a 130x death rate from anemia at 0.26/1000

    The people reading this forum can decide whether a JW with anemia is 10x or 130x more likely to die from anemia than a person receiving normal medical care.

    http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/anemia-10-times-more-witnesses-die.html

  • runForever
    runForever

    " 50,000 is 2.7% of the aggregate total of 1,873,957."

    Question for Marvin: So you are saying 2.7% of all Jehovah's witness deaths are from anemia? 2.7 deaths out of 100 are from anemia?

  • tim hooper
    tim hooper

    About 900 witnesses die every year from want of a blood transfusion according to this: http://www.krev.info/library/pocetumrti.pdf

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