The April 1, 1972 Watchtower (p197) explains that God has a modern prophet that is "not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses." This is written under the subheading "Identifying the Prophet".
I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion
by DS211 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
rawe
Hi DS,
"what would you say?"...
"My friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit Bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda."
True, I have not visited Bethel, however I have had friends in the faith who did. Invariably they report what you're saying. One comment I heard was you could "eat off the factory floor" it was so clean. But, do we really, I mean really, have the freedom to report something negative? You see dear friend just saying it is "God's organization" is part of the problem. When the spies went into the promised land most came back with a negative report, only Caleb and Joshua reported the good. How does the Bible frame this response? It clearly sends a message that anything from God must be reported as good!
Now that I have left the faith, I have heard other not-so-good stories about Bethel life. No, none of the counter with contrary facts, like the floors are really dirty -- they are clean -- that part is obvious. Rather you hear about crushing weight of personal freedom taken away. A story of an older brother being obviously punished because he did not want to move out of NY. Punished how? By being re-assigned to work beyond his physical ability. Loving? Not always!
Then there is this word "obedient", "to OBEY is better than sacrifice" said Samuel to Saul. Yet the three Hebrews refused to obey and bow down to the golden image. For their disobedience they were thrown into the fire. What do we do when one refuses to bow down to the golden image of the Watchtower? Do we not likewise throw them into the fire? Hoping to destroy them by cutting off all contact with friends and family?
"And he also uses how many go out and preach the same message"
And what is that message exactly? Is it the really the "good news of the Kingdom?" Let's be honest, most of the preaching is nothing but ritual for us as Witnesses. Canned presentations designed to further the interests of an organization that prints magazines, tracts and books. Does it make any sense to go out and preach to total strangers, as if we could convince them, when in fact, most of our children leave the faith? See the Pew report on Religion in the USA if you don't believe me.
"how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment"
Indeed, the brotherhood can be a wonderful thing. That is to their credit. But again, let's be honest, other high-control groups such as the FLDS, Amish, The People's Temple (Jonestown) and the Unification Church (Moonies), no doubt could all say the same tthing. What we do know is the organization demands that it alone controls the flow of affection that it can turn off or on as a spiget. One day, unbaptized "disapproved associates" were shunned, the next day after one Watchtower, they were not. Is that true, love? Personally motivated, according to one's own knowledge and conscience?
"follow the Bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love"
Would anyone person in the modern world really follow the Bible? If they did, would you admire them? Let's not forget the Bible calls for society to 'put to death' people for lots of different reasons such as a man having sex with his daughter-in-law, two men having sex, joining another religion, etc. How can demanding that brothers, in most, but not all, countries, be clean shaven be Biblical? Is it not time to admit, that is more the current interpretation and emphasis of parts of the Bible by the leadership that is paramount. Or consider detailed chronological Biblical studies that showed 6000 years ran from 4026 BCE to 1975 -- why is such information considered with great interest before 1975, but not afterwards? The Biblical dates are still in the Bible, aren't they?
"do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc."
I'll take my chances with the Pagans! I have only met one so far, and she was perfectly lovely. While Christmas has many elements tied to the story of the birth of Jesus, the pagan elements like evergreens surviving the cold winter, speak to me just as deeply! Just going around and yelling "pagan" like it is the boogey man is really not that enlightened or impressive.
Cheers,
-Randy
-
DS211
The society appaently feels that putting "prophet" in quotes somehow makes it no really mean a prophet, as if that somehow absolves them.
-
outsmartthesystem
The March 22, 1993 Awake is a magazine that uses weasel words to try to back out of taking responsibility for making false predictions. It is a favorite amongst clever elders. Page 4 tries to explain why Russell and Rutherford should not be viewed as false prophets. It says " Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'"
If the everlasting life of individual witnesses is contingent upon obeying the "faithful slave".....then does it really matter whether or not they specifically say "these are the words of Jehovah?" Isn't that assumption already implied by both the writers of the article and those reading it? Is that what it really comes down to? Jehovah is a God of tricky technicalities and clever semantics? Yet at the bottom of that very same page under the Awake masthead we read the same thing that was printed on every Awake magazine at that time. "this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." It should be noted that at that time......the society defined a generation as 70-80 years. Therefore the belief was that those that physically saw the events of 1914 would be alive when armageddon came. Not this muddled "overlapping" shit they've put in print today.
So, in all honesty, what is the difference between saying "These are the words of Jehovah.." and "The Creator promises..?" Are they really trying to get themselves off the hook with that technicality? The fact is plain and simple. They spoke on behalf of God.......telling US what HE promises.......and they put it in writing. The fact is, the society has proudly put Jehovah's name on all their teachings. Even if they don't say "this is directly from Jehovah"…..the insinuation is that it is. If the assumption was that the teaching was completely man made…...no one would follow. The society reminds us constantly that they are Jehovah's sole channel of communication. That He only speaks through them. The July 15, 1998 Watchtower (p12) says in reference to spiritual food being provided through the faithful and discreet slave, "thus God is speaking, but are we listening?".
So the society explains that when the slave provides counsel…….it is God speaking, therefore we should listen. Yet they also try to wiggle out of responsibility for past failures by saying "Never did they say, 'these are the words of Jehovah'"? Seriously? Does that mean that JWs should wait until they start prefacing statements with "these are the words of Jehovah" before they listen? If a witness decides that he is not going to follow the latest teaching of the society and is open about his feelings and tells others about it he is subject to disfellowshipping for creating a sect. Odds are, that teaching as expressed in the literature did not start with the words, "these are the words of Jehovah". Regardless, it is understood and implied that this new teaching is from Jehovah therefore all witnesses must abide by it. Simply put, the belief of 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses is that if it comes from the faithful slave then it is coming from Jehovah. To try to wiggle out of responsibility for past false prophecies by saying "but we never said this is coming from Jehovah" is irresponsible, dishonest, and cowardly.
-
outsmartthesystem
Sorry for all the posts.....but I hope you find something in there to be helpful
-
DS211
No problem at all in fact it drives home every point i want to make! I just have to be subtle for my wife. But i will use the contradictions on "we are not speaking for God, yet claim to be his sole channel" rubbish with her. You either are or you are not. And if not then you have no right to utilize control over othersthought. For one it makes them unable to make "the truth their own" and "come to know" God and Christ as brought out by every Bible at John 17:3 and now the caught-up NNwt.
Between this and jwfacts ive got some good stuff t go on...thanks
DS
-
villagegirl
efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.And he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the Bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc
All of the above is true of Seventh Day Adventists and all closed system cults,
Scientologist, etc they all have a strong bond within their own group.
Its also true of Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Catholics, Coptics, Islamist extremists and Cargo Cults.
As far as following the Bible ask him about what Jesus said would mark his followers
" I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me, alone and you visited me,
in prison and went to me, a stranger and you took me in ... etc etc " It was
actions towards others regardless of who they were that marked his followers.
Not restricted to only those within the group.
The core flaw in their doctrine is: two classes, two hopes,
and the artificial construct called the "faithful and discreet slave"
which is in reality a clergy class, elevated to be mankinds only connection God,
which means they substitute the Governing Body for Jesus Christ and
tell you they are your mediator and you cannot access God except through
the Governing Body, that is blasphemy and they become the Man of Lawlessness ,
standing in the Holy Place.
-
UBM101
They don't have the Holy Spirit. Period.
-
DS211
Elder told mei showed spiritual maturity tonight...not sure if thats good or bad lol.
-
jhine
o.k. did not realise that you had the problem of not upsetting your wife , that puts a different spin on things and my post above was not at all helpful . Sorry . Folks who have been in this situation are better qualified to help and I am glad that you are getting GOOD advice .
Jan