Question About 607BCE and How That Date Was Picked - Help JW Scholars

by Comatose 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Eyesuse2badup: The number 360 comes from the number of days in a 'lunar' or Jewish year.

    No, the 360 days comes from an 'ideal' or schematic year of 12 x 30-day months. To that had to be added 2 solstices and 2 equinoxes (364 days).

    For everyday use, the Jews used a lunisolar calendar. A lunar year is 354 days (12 x 29.5 days) to which a leap month had to be added every 3 years or so to keep the months in line with the seasons. A leap year would be 383-4 days long.

    Jeffro: C.T. Russell got 606 from other sources prevalent at the time. Many dates had been suggested in the 19th century for the fall of Jerusalem, but 606 was the most common by Russell's time.

    No, as was already explained, scholars associated the 606 BCE date with the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, NOT the fall of Jerusalem. The fall of Jerusalem was commonly placed at 588 or 587 BCE. Russell/Barbour disagreed and insisted the chronologists had made a fundamental error.

    See ZWT 1904, Oct. 1, The Time of Harvest, p. 296f. [R3436f.]. <--- Comatose, this is a must-read if you want to get into Russell's head on this. It's also mind-blowing (at least to me) that the WTS has always known, even in Russell's day, that there were serious problems with the 607/606 date as the fall of Jerusalem. It's also worthwhile to read his initial reasoning against following the conventional (Usher's) chronology - Studies Vol. II, 'The Time Is At Hand,' p. 51f.

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    And don't forget that every seven years the Jewish calendar added an extra half month of 13-14 days to their year to make up for the fact they had 360 days rather than the 365.something days of the solar calendar. That brings you to 1947. Whoa, mind blown! What a whacky coincidence.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Where did 607 come from? Say what? Nelson Barbour is the one that applied the 70 years from the restoration of Jerusalem to the destruction. 537-607.

    Prior to that, the chronology scholars believed the destruction was in 586 and that the 7 times ending or gentile times was independent of the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel looked to the seventy years because he knew when it started, when Daniel was taken captive in 607. The 70 years ran from 607-537, but they started at the first captivity, not the destruction. That is what the pre Barbour scholars believed, which I accept.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Jeffro - What encyclopedias have you been reading?! (Yes, it was almost certainly just a typo.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    AnnOMaly:

    No, as was already explained, scholars associated the 606 BCE date with the beginning of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, NOT the fall of Jerusalem. The fall of Jerusalem was commonly placed at 588 or 587 BCE. Russell/Barbour disagreed and insisted the chronologists had made a fundamental error.

    Well, yeah. I was too busy thinking about where they got 606 from that I got a bit muddled about what it was actually applied to in the late 19th century. Duh. jwfacts' earlier error must have infected me, but I think I'm just going to blame it on having the TV on in the background. My brain has since returned to normal programming.

  • Dutchdelight
  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    We have a comedian in our midst. Welcome, Dutchdelight

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Dutchdelight:

    This topic explains it well, although it's a lot of reading. http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.nl/2005/11/jerusalems-destruction-587-or-607.html

    Ho-hum.

    Everything in that article and a lot more dealt with here.

  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    O and don't forget Pastor Russell's famous 'pyramid inch' scheme that proved the Bible chronology.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    Taking C T Russell's calculations based on the Great Pyramid of Egypt out of the equation (that is a whole topic by itself......and YES......Russell believed that by adding up the dimensions of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh.......he could predict the future......which is....in and of itself......a spiritistic practice) we are left with the following:

    Obviously we know they claim the fall of Jerusalem happened in 607 BC. They come up with that year based on 2 scriptures. One is found in Daniel Chapter 4 and is referring to the "seven times" representing Nebuchadnezzar. The "seven times" had an initial fulfillment during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar when he went insane and lived among the beasts of the fields for 7 years. But the society says that this prophecy has a greater fulfillment and that greater fulfillment happened from the period of time of Jerusalem's destruction (which is placed at 607BC) down to the end of the Gentile Times. The "seven times" are interpreted as 7 lunar years with each year consisting of 360 days. That gives us 2,520 days. However, other prophecies are then referred to, using the expression "day for a year". Employing this formula, 2,520 days becomes 2,520 years. 2,520 years from 607 BC takes us forward to 1914. There are two points of interest here. One is that the society claims that although the book of Daniel has many prophesies (2 nd , 4 th , 5 th , 7 th , 9 th and 11 th chapters)….only the 4 th chapter contains 2 fulfillments. The other point of interest is that the 2,520 years is calculated using lunar years of 360 days each. But…..when starting at 607BC and counting forward into the future…..the society uses SOLAR years of 365 ¼ days to actually apply the prophecy. Why the discrepancy? Why use lunar years to calculate but solar years to apply?

    The other main scripture the society focuses on refers to the 70 years of desolation. According to the Society, Jeremiah, in his 25th Chapter predicts that Jerusalem would be desolated for 70 years. From Cyrus' decree for the Jews to return to their homeland (which JWs have dated as 537BC) and going back 70 years, you come up with 607 BC as the fall of Jerusalem. This is an all important date for Jehovah's Witnesses. Present teachings about the beginning of Christ's kingdom rule, the last days, when the resurrection would begin etc etc are all tied in with this calculation. Not many Witnesses can explain the intricate application and combination of texts involved, but they accept the end product of this process. The problem is that there is NO historical evidence to back up the idea that Jerusalem fell in 607 BC. Acknowledging this, many witnesses will say this may be true, but when it comes to trusting history vs God's Holy word, they put their trust in God. That seems like the correct thing to say. I said it for many years. But then I got to looking at all the evidence against 607 BC. When I looked at all of it, I thought to myself "is this really historical evidence vs the bible?" I determined that is not the case. This is a matter of historical evidence vs the Watchtower Society's doctrine and chronology. The Society's best written argument against 586/587 BC is found in the Kingdom Come book Appendix to Chapter 14. When proper research is done.......their arguments are found to be paper thin.

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